Drive-by cut-n-paste of a long article: He's baaa-aa-aack! - Page 3 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #21 of 264 (permalink) Old 12-13-2007, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Naomilla2.0 View Post
Welcome back.


Would someone care to give me a three-sentence synopsis of the article?


Know?
No!
Know!
No?

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post #22 of 264 (permalink) Old 12-13-2007, 05:55 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cascade View Post
Botnst, thank you for returning. It is good to have you back. You were missed.

To the extent I may have had any role in precipitating your absence, I apologize sincerely to you without any reservations.
It's not about other folks, it's me. I don't mean that in an egotistical or egocentric fashion. What I mean is that my reaction to other people is just that: Mine. It is not the responsibility of other people. It is mine and mine alone.

So my getting tired of the behavior of others is not their responsibility, it is mine. I am free to choose whether or not to be pissed-off. I knew that before I left, but I let my emotional involvement overwhelm what I know to be true. I wish I could say that was the last time I will let my emotions overwhelm common sense.

In short: Don't let it bother you. Or as St Paul said, "Unto thine ownself, be true."

Bot

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #23 of 264 (permalink) Old 12-13-2007, 06:20 PM Thread Starter
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Dr. Paul may not be the best example for a counter-argument, since he appears to be that rare individual without a partisan or special interest-laden agenda. Because of that and because I align with him almost perfectly in regard to matters of foreign policy, I would tend to place far greater stock in his truths than the truths of the current administration.

I'm sure we can all agree that a nuclear Iran poses a threat to some degree. Where I believe Dr. Paul has it right, is in his assertion that a non-nuclear Iran poses (nearly) no threat. If Dr. Paul wants an unbiased best assessment of the nuclear capabilities/ambitions of Iran, I would like to believe that's what he will receive.

In regard to Tenant, who do think was responsible for that sordid situation, Tenant himself?
Much as I like Mr Paul, I hope he doesn't make the mistake that Carter made and try to know everything about everything. The leadership models I have knowledge of and that I think were as near ideal as possible in a modern, complex USA were those of FDR and Eisenhower. Both of them depended on a strong staff, as did Reagan and Bush II.

However, both FDR and Ike were in undisputed command, made their desires crystal clear, and left no doubt about who was subordinate to whom. In contrast, Reagan and Bush II failed to command obedience of their subordinates. if they had appointed indecisive or barely competent department heads then they would have had presidencies more like Carter or Nixon. Instead, they appointed department heads of extraordinary intelligence and strength of personality. As a result, subordinates were able to run their departments without much presidential interference. The result in Reagan's case was Iran-Contra and in Bush's: Iraq. Neither event could have happened under Ike or FDR.

So I'll assume President Paul will appoint competent department heads. He will inherit, as do all presidents, the DCIA and other equivalent spooks. The history of CIA (especially) is one of political manipulation of the presidency & Congress. It is also one of tragically flawed or failed analysis concerning the most important events in the 2nd half of 20th and the opening of the 21st centuries.

The CIA screwed-up clandestine operations during the Korean war that resulted in torture and death of American and partisan forces; Botched operations against the legally elected Iranian government AND worse, leaving our fingerprints all over the squalid affair; f**ked-up in Cuba by creating the Bay of Pigs through complete misunderstanding of the Cuban people's revulsion toward the USA; f**ked-up in their assessment of Ho Chi Minh, the French colonialists, and the will of the Vietnamese to suffer any kind of government that would reject colonialism in any form; missed the build-up and war between Vietnam and China that resulted in China's complete overhaul of their own military (due to getting their ass handed to them by Vietnam); didn't predict the fall of the Berlin Wall; backed teh wrong side in the war against the USSR in Afghanistan; and failed to predict the sudden and complete collapse of the USSR -- probably the most incredibly important event in our nation's history since it's formation.

So where does President Paul turn for information concerning Iran?

bot

PS In my opinion, CIA should be dismantled and divided between State and Defense. It's raison d'etre was to bridge that gap and provide the Executive Branch with the best summary analysis from those two camps. It has failed and the failure has cost us taxpayers trillions of dollars and tens of thousands of American lives. It has grown so powerful that it has an unelected political influence over every aspect of foreign policy. By enacting the Patriot Act, the President & Congress have given the CIA even more power.

Giving power to proven incompetence is worse than stupid.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #24 of 264 (permalink) Old 12-13-2007, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
In short: Don't let it bother you. Or as St Paul said, "Unto thine ownself, be true."

Bot

Oh shit, another of God's sheep returns to the fold...........

Seriously, glad to see you back Bot
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post #25 of 264 (permalink) Old 12-13-2007, 06:25 PM Thread Starter
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Hey Dig, something happen to FTL that I missed in my absence? I thought I'd kept-up by sneaking in every once in a while to see what's up. Much as he pisses me off I would never wish for any harm to come to him. Quite the opposite, and I wish him well.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #26 of 264 (permalink) Old 12-13-2007, 06:33 PM
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post #27 of 264 (permalink) Old 12-13-2007, 06:36 PM
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We have a considerable amount of tail wagging the dog. I for one would like a clean up or clear out. I would rather err on the side of too much than too little. Dr. Paul sounds like my kind of guy on what I perceive now as the most important issues, but he is a long shot, and if elected still a long shot at getting things to pass that would make any genuine change. All that could happen if the public would pay attention to their gov't. and force the issues, but that is likely to happen until things get quite bad and they get very restless. Or simply lower their standard of living. Then the human who yells the most, talks the toughest, and claims the most righteous power, will sweep in to make change. Problem is that kind of person is usually a power monger and once in is difficult to vacate.
Is this pessimistic diatribe digressing or what?
So around and around we go. One has to look no further than the so called undeveloped countries to see this cycle repeat for the ages. I guess what I am saying is that I want change, hell any safe start to change, that would decentralize the power of our gov't. The CIA and IRS would be a fair place to start. And the best way is to possibly get more than just two lousy political parties vying for the knobs.

Last edited by Shane; 12-13-2007 at 06:39 PM.
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post #28 of 264 (permalink) Old 12-13-2007, 06:38 PM
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Who gave Israel the nukes?
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post #29 of 264 (permalink) Old 12-13-2007, 06:39 PM
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YouTube - Loony Ron Paul - CIA? Who needs 'em?

I know that Dr. Paul supports a non-interventionist foreign policy that wouldn't require the level of detail we have sought from intelligence gathering agencies over the last 50 - 60 years, and he is brutally and vocally aware of our failings in that regard. I don't know where he turns, but I suspect he has some ideas, none of which involve Homeland Security or the CIA.

The one point you've made that I'm not too sure I agree with is the notion that GW was victimized by poor intelligence. It seems to me that the administration sought the exact information it received in order to support its agenda to colonize the ME. I don't see how that can be characterized as an intelligence failure, since it seems to be a situation of subordinates doing just as they were instructed.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #30 of 264 (permalink) Old 12-13-2007, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Much as I like Mr Paul, I hope he doesn't make the mistake that Carter made and try to know everything about everything. The leadership models I have knowledge of and that I think were as near ideal as possible in a modern, complex USA were those of FDR and Eisenhower. Both of them depended on a strong staff, as did Reagan and Bush II.

However, both FDR and Ike were in undisputed command, made their desires crystal clear, and left no doubt about who was subordinate to whom. In contrast, Reagan and Bush II failed to command obedience of their subordinates. if they had appointed indecisive or barely competent department heads then they would have had presidencies more like Carter or Nixon. Instead, they appointed department heads of extraordinary intelligence and strength of personality. As a result, subordinates were able to run their departments without much presidential interference. The result in Reagan's case was Iran-Contra and in Bush's: Iraq. Neither event could have happened under Ike or FDR.

So I'll assume President Paul will appoint competent department heads. He will inherit, as do all presidents, the DCIA and other equivalent spooks. The history of CIA (especially) is one of political manipulation of the presidency & Congress. It is also one of tragically flawed or failed analysis concerning the most important events in the 2nd half of 20th and the opening of the 21st centuries.

The CIA screwed-up clandestine operations during the Korean war that resulted in torture and death of American and partisan forces; Botched operations against the legally elected Iranian government AND worse, leaving our fingerprints all over the squalid affair; f**ked-up in Cuba by creating the Bay of Pigs through complete misunderstanding of the Cuban people's revulsion toward the USA; f**ked-up in their assessment of Ho Chi Minh, the French colonialists, and the will of the Vietnamese to suffer any kind of government that would reject colonialism in any form; missed the build-up and war between Vietnam and China that resulted in China's complete overhaul of their own military (due to getting their ass handed to them by Vietnam); didn't predict the fall of the Berlin Wall; backed teh wrong side in the war against the USSR in Afghanistan; and failed to predict the sudden and complete collapse of the USSR -- probably the most incredibly important event in our nation's history since it's formation.

So where does President Paul turn for information concerning Iran?

bot

PS In my opinion, CIA should be dismantled and divided between State and Defense. It's raison d'etre was to bridge that gap and provide the Executive Branch with the best summary analysis from those two camps. It has failed and the failure has cost us taxpayers trillions of dollars and tens of thousands of American lives. It has grown so powerful that it has an unelected political influence over every aspect of foreign policy. By enacting the Patriot Act, the President & Congress have given the CIA even more power.

Giving power to proven incompetence is worse than stupid.
Welcome back. Thought you had fallen in a petri dish or some such.

I agree completely the CIA needs to just be dismantled but there needs to be an infrastructure to absorb the functions in place to enhance its former functions. Right now they are too busy trying to tech up their systems and AI everything on the collection end and then provide more "enhanced" review on the delivery end which spins to the intended client. As long as the Director and subs are appointed and "at the pleasure..." they will continue to spin to the leanings of their boss [and sponsor].

One question on your post above.
Quote:
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Instead, they appointed department heads of extraordinary intelligence and strength of personality. As a result, subordinates were able to run their departments without much presidential interference.
You were talking about Bush 1.1a there?

McBear,
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