If YOU Were The CIA Weenie Using Enhanced Interrogation Procedures What Would You Do? - Page 7 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #61 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 03:21 PM
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In light of the views presented in this thread I have decided on trying a new tactic

I'm taking dunkin donuts coffee and a butt load of boston creme donuts. I'll bribe my way into the info

Yeah, that's bound to be more effective and humane. If that doesn't work, you can always resort to giving them titty twisters. That's how we did it when I was still active duty. Worked every time.
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post #62 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 03:49 PM
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Yeah, that's bound to be more effective and humane. If that doesn't work, you can always resort to giving them titty twisters. That's how we did it when I was still active duty. Worked every time.
"titty twisters..."! That sounds intriguing. I'm gaining more respect for you guys every day...

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post #63 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 03:50 PM
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Do you believe that the individuals being subjected to such interrogations in Iraq intend to travel abroad and kill civilians within the borders of the U.S.?
If given the opportunity, they'd travel anywhere to kill Americans and her allies. Of the 19 that already did come here and kill thousands of U.S. citizens, would it not have been great if we'd captured just one of them before the 9/11 attacks?

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post #64 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 04:06 PM
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Goodness, there are so many points to make here, I'm not sure I really have the time.

1. 19 Iraqis? Please elaborate.
2. We certainly could have captured more than one as they entered our country. Instead, we chose to allow known terrorists into our country and train them to harm us. (Pssssssst -- most were Saudis, none were Iraqis)
3. Most of the individuals in question in Iraq are not terrorists, they are locals trying to do their part to repel foreign invaders. It may be fair to label them as our enemies, but it is a gross misuse of the word to label them terrorists (note that I said most). I'm sure that some are targeting Iraqi civilians, those individuals could properly be labeled 'terrorists'.
4. You are wrong, most of these folks just want to left alone, free from American influence, just as you and I want to be left alone, free from Iraqi influence. You may find that entirely unreasonable, but I believe they should have that right.
5. The answer to the question of whether or not to torture people who want to repel foreign invaders, just as you or I would, is to go home and leave them alone. It's just that simple.

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post #65 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar View Post
Goodness, there are so many points to make here, I'm not sure I really have the time.

1. 19 Iraqis? Please elaborate.
2. We certainly could have captured more than one as they entered our country. Instead, we chose to allow known terrorists into our country and train them to harm us. (Pssssssst -- most were Saudis, none were Iraqis)
3. Most of the individuals in question in Iraq are not terrorists, they are locals trying to do their part to repel foreign invaders. It may be fair to label them as our enemies, but it is a gross misuse of the word to label them terrorists (note that I said most). I'm sure that some are targeting Iraqi civilians, those individuals could properly be labeled 'terrorists'.
4. You are wrong, most of these folks just want to left alone, free from American influence, just as you and I want to be left alone, free from Iraqi influence. You may find that entirely unreasonable, but I believe they should have that right.
5. The answer to the question of whether or not to torture people who want to repel foreign invaders, just as you or I would, is to go home and leave them alone. It's just that simple.
Forgive me for not clarifying my intent. 15 of the 19 were Saudis. I was referring to Arab terrorists, in general. Also, a good number of detainess are from other countries such as Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. and they crossed the Iraq and Afghanistan border to stir up trouble. Hell, even one of them was an American!
As for your argument that most want to be left alone: What country did we occupy BEFORE the 9/11 attacks? And I'm NOT justifying the Iraq quagmire with that question.

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Last edited by cmitch; 12-10-2007 at 04:25 PM.
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post #66 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 04:25 PM
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Yeah, that's bound to be more effective and humane. If that doesn't work, you can always resort to giving them titty twisters. That's how we did it when I was still active duty. Worked every time.
Can't do that, that is back to abusing the insurgent(note I don't use the term terrorist).

If the coffee and donuts doesn't work I'll take them to a strip club with a thousand in 1's between the boobies and beer they'll be singing like ole blue eyes in 10 min or less.





















and yes I know they don't drink but it's not as funny if I say kool aide

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post #67 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fast55 View Post
Hardly. At no point has anyone here presented a position that we should be as "barbaric" as the enemy.
That is your perspective on what has been posted. I see nothing but an excuse to do what ever is deemed expedient to achieve the desired ends. And, when the intel we get is flawed, and we kill a few hundred innocents, well, shit happens doesn't it?

Where is the definition you and those on the "no rights for some humans under US government complete control" side of this issue subscribe to? It seems that there is none - just the assurance that whatever is done is justified because those terrorists, however that must be defined for the moment, apparently, don't deserve from our government what our Constitution states are the unalienable rights endowed by their creator. Our government made a commitment to recognize these rights and in that statement makes no mention of this recognition being limited by citizenship, or just who ever might be labeled a "terrorist" by someone anointed with that authority by the President.

I see this Carte Blanche policy as the easy way out. There is no bottom to hit until we are worse than our enemy and then there is no evidence that becoming more barbaric than our enemies as long as it is perceived as saving an American life, will be rejected. Remember, we have bombed schools, hospitals and embassies by "mistake" in some cases and because we thought our intel sources told us there was bad shit going on in those locations, already.

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You are also wrong that the discussion is "not connected to the original issue" unless it's your essay that's considered not connected.
What is not connected is the discussion of torture at remote facilities, the originating thread's topic, being justified by the situation each combat soldier faces when on duty in Iraq. The two situations are not connected, so the logic that says in one case the soldier makes a split second decision on what to do, vs. the other situation where multiple rounds of attempts to break a suspect down by torture are carried out in relative safety.

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No one contends that it's OK to blow up civilians, behead people, etc. What we contend is that while distasteful, "waterboarding" is not the worst thing that could happen to an enemy combatant in the process of extracting intel from him. It's far from "sinking to lowest possible level of humanity". As usual, you have tried to read much more into what was posted.
Show me where you define the limits of what might be considered acceptable. What I read was a suggestion that if it works (meaning, I guess, the victim talks) it is ok, regardless of what "it" is. As already noted, we have killed many thousands more civilians in Iraq than 9-11 took American lives. In fact, we have sent more American soldiers to their deaths than the number of Americans that died in the 9-11 horror. I see very little remorse or introspective review of the thought processes that have taken us to a point where we find the value of human life different depending on the location the particular human calls home. Apparently collateral damage that kills innocent Iraqis by the thousands per year is acceptable, even when it is the result of actions taken in response to intel gathered through torture.

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It's not my "flawed solution" to anything. It's what needs to be done.
Ahhh, so in your own words, if you perceive "what needs to be done" is murdering women and children in Iraq (seems we have already done this, and are directly responsible for setting the conditions for insurgents to continue that practice at a much accelerated rate), or beheading, or whatever, so be it.

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Originally Posted by Fast55 View Post
"My policy" is not "short sighted" because I don't set policy, nor is it my goal to "justify a policy of illegal intervention in other nation's internal affairs".
Great, so is it more accurate to say the the policy you defend, and therefore seem to have adopted as your own? Good. Consider the words changed.

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You say that "We don't do that to mass murders, child molesters, rapists or any other kind of criminal in America, no matter how horrid their crime." Correct. They are AMERICANS as you point out and deserve better. The ENEMY is just that, and do not deserve the protections afforded our citizens. Again, while horrific and distasteful, I'll never lose a wink over this knowing it can and does save the lives of our men in the field. You just do not get it and never will.
This is the fundamental argument - I don't subscribe to the fact that a captured enemy, who is no longer a direct threat to any American soldiers because we have him locked up, out of the country, unable to communicate with the outside world, is not subject to treatment that recognizes our founding father's standard of treatment of such people under our government's control. They have inalienable rights endowed by their creator because our nation's premise is that all men were created equal. The only real difference is which governments recognize these rights for what they are. Our Constitution says America recognizes such rights, and makes no mention of citizenship being a prerequisite. The choice of words, specifically, "ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL" seems to very clearly establish "all men" and not "some men, namely those granted citizenship by birth or through naturalization" as the ones with inalienable rights to be recognized by the United States Government.

Your suggested interpretation overtly values American lives and rights greater than all other humans on earth. I do not see any support in the Constitution for that interpretation, and would find such an interpretation to lead to isolation and further loss of stature in the world community. Jim
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post #68 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 04:41 PM
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Forgive me for not clarifying my intent. 15 of the 19 were Saudis. I was referring to Arab terrorists, in general. Also, a good number of detainees are from other countries such as Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. and they crossed the border to stir up trouble. Hell, even one of them was an American!
As for your argument that most want to be left alone: What country did we occupy BEFORE the 9/11 attacks? And I'm NOT justifying the Iraq quagmire with that question.
It is that fallacious, racist mindset that led to our invasion of Iraq in the first place. My god man, Rummy had been quoted as suggesting that we bomb Iraq in direct retaliation for the 9/11 attack, because 'there are no good targets in Afghanistan', and that on or about 9/12/2001 as I recall.

Bin Laden has given many reasons for the 9/11 attack, from our abandonment of Afghanistan in the 80's, to our support for Israel, to (and this was apparently the straw that broke the camel's back) the placement of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia once Desert Storm concluded. We have meddled in the internal affairs of Iran, sucker punched the Soviets into invading Afghanistan, interfered in the Iran/Iraq war, interfered in the Israel/Palestine conflict, supported and still support fascist dictators in Saudi Arabia, etc, etc. None of which justifies the 9/11 attack, btw, but these folks do want to be left alone, and I don't blame them. And none of which has anything to do with our invasion of Iraq, which has all along been nothing more than an exercise in profiteering and imperialism on the part of the Bush administration.

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post #69 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 04:45 PM
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As already noted, we have killed many thousands more civilians in Iraq than 9-11 took American lives.

Ahhh, so in your own words, if you perceive "what needs to be done" is murdering women and children in Iraq (seems we have already done this, and are directly responsible for setting the conditions for insurgents to continue that practice at a much accelerated rate), or beheading, or whatever, so be it.

So now that you have decided to head down this road saying that the US Military is a group of murders.

Yup your a tool don't like the way the government is run than change it vote for those you think can fix it. Or get off your ass and run for office and make a difference from the inside. Go and protest the war. The constitution/bill of rights your so fond of waving around gives you the right to do just that.

Don't forget there is one last method to avoid all this... Seek political asylum in north korea, china or iran and you can see how much greener the grass is there.

Hide behind your first amendment right's all you like but don't you dare to call me a murder ever again for making sure you sleep safely in your bed at night.

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post #70 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar View Post
Goodness, there are so many points to make here, I'm not sure I really have the time.

1. 19 Iraqis? Please elaborate.
2. We certainly could have captured more than one as they entered our country. Instead, we chose to allow known terrorists into our country and train them to harm us. (Pssssssst -- most were Saudis, none were Iraqis)
3. Most of the individuals in question in Iraq are not terrorists, they are locals trying to do their part to repel foreign invaders. It may be fair to label them as our enemies, but it is a gross misuse of the word to label them terrorists (note that I said most). I'm sure that some are targeting Iraqi civilians, those individuals could properly be labeled 'terrorists'.
4. You are wrong, most of these folks just want to left alone, free from American influence, just as you and I want to be left alone, free from Iraqi influence. You may find that entirely unreasonable, but I believe they should have that right.
5. The answer to the question of whether or not to torture people who want to repel foreign invaders, just as you or I would, is to go home and leave them alone. It's just that simple.
Why don't you just go back to al-Qaeda-Supporters site and give us all a break?!

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