If YOU Were The CIA Weenie Using Enhanced Interrogation Procedures What Would You Do? - Page 6 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #51 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 01:02 PM
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Innocent people always get hurt in conflict, no way around it. Goes back to whether you do or don't support this battle.
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post #52 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ArmyRover View Post
The ones I turned over to MI are the ones that fit the following

1. Found in possesion of quantities of explosives
2. Found in possesion of weapons caches
3. Found assembling bombs
4. Found Emplacing IED's
5. Found driving around with car bombs
6. Known leaders of insurgent groups
7. Individuals attacking Coalition forces/Iraqi Civilians
8. Caught with plans to build/execute any of the above
What about the suspect's family members or those found in close proximity at the time of capture? Are they handed over, as well?
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post #53 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 02:02 PM Thread Starter
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+1. I find it sickening that those who have never spent a day in the field question the tactics used by our armed forces. It's like second guessing your brain surgeon. You simply are not qualified to voice an opinion. You may be entitled to one, but that's all it is, an opinion. Whatever we may have done to these dirt bags pales by comparison to what these guys will do to anyone, women, children, ANYONE, if they think it can help them. We may not sleep well after doing what needs to be done, but some folks should be a little less critical and quite a bit more thankful for those willing to carry out the task.

Oh and Jim, Patton WAS an asshole, just my kind of asshole.
Sounds like what you and cmitch and ArmyRover are looking for is when we make their tactics pale by comparison. THEN we will really be the top dog, right?

The discussion here has again been diluted to try to make your flawed solution appear reasonable. You dilute the discussion from a very specific set of acts being perpetrated in the name of the United States of America, by government agencies with the explicit authorization of the executive branch in safe havens off our shores but away from the field of combat, to encompassing siding with the daily decision making crises of the soldier in the field of combat, or not, which is not connected to the original issue and should not be connected in the context of this discussion.

I have spoken a number of times in favor of giving the soldier in the field the benefit of the doubt. I acknowledge the conditions we put them in by sending them to places like Iraq without proper planning , with no clear mission, no clear enemy, no end in sight, and then ask them to expose themselves daily to the potential to be blown to bits or beheaded by a unidentifiable foe are unquestionably unreasonable, and the instinct of each of them to survive such circumstances will force the rest of us to accept some questionable (from the safety of our seats in front of computer screens and tv sets) calls they make as a result.

You are correct - those not there, like me, don't have a valid perspective to be voicing criticism of those who are there living this nightmare. We should also make sure we don't dilute their sacrifice by whitewashing the acts of others not in those same circumstances who are making much more deliberate and considered decisions to act like savages. Extending the acknowledgment of the combat soldiers' much more dire and desperate acts of self preservation where it does not apply , such as to the deliberate and considered tactics of those torturing human beings held as enemy combatants by our government in locations safely outside the battlefield, lessens the respect for the combat soldier's actual circumstances. The situations are not the same and they therefore deserve appropriately different measures of acceptability.

I don't subscribe to giving the agent of torture, like the "dentist" in Marathon Man, or those who would authorize him to carry out torture any benefits of any doubts I acknowledge accrue to the combat soldier in the field making countless serious decisions in the face of direct, life threatening danger. Such acts by agents administering torture at secure facilities around the world in the name of the United States are not the result of life or death decisions being flashed in front of them for real, in real time. These are decisions made studying the captives in situations to learn how best to break them using all means of torture methods that Hollywood or Al-Qaeda have popularized, and then some, over periods of months or years. Water boarding is nothing more than a poster child in this discussion of torture tactics.

The same with holding these guys for years and years. If they are suspected of something specific enough to hold them for years, try them. If they are guilty, shoot them. If they are not guilty, ship them back to where they came from and let them go. Holding them without charges and denying them a trial in a reasonable period of time, is just un-American. We don't do that to mass murders, child molesters, rapists or any other kind of criminal in America, no matter how horrid their crime.

What you are defending is YOUR CHOICE to take the easy way out, plain and simple and you do it by diluting the argument for understanding the combat soldier's situation. Be more barbaric than the enemy, which is the enemy's present tactic, to justify a policy of illegal intervention in other nation's internal affairs is a goal you apparently set for America. Sink to the lowest possible level of humanity because you believe that is the most effective way to deal with the problem your short sighted policies have created, and continue to create that must then be confronted by this nation. I don't share the perspective, the logic or the goal.

Jim

Edit: Oh yeah, but Patton was not setting national policy, he was carrying out his mission, assigned to him by his civilian bosses. He subsequently made no moves to take over the government of the United States and impose his outlook as our foreign policy. I would have thought you students of his legacy would have realized Patton was never running the State Department or the Pentagon for that matter and earned his reputation for being a great general by being a great general, not talking about it.

Last edited by JimSmith; 12-10-2007 at 02:22 PM.
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post #54 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 02:31 PM
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JimSmith: you just don't understand that to fight terrorism, our government needs lots of information. This action depends less on pointing one's rifle accurately than previous wars. We're dealing here with projections, plans, motives, techniques and mind-games. It's less a matter of intervention than prevention. And that is why the criminal justice system is ill-equipped to try our enemy; the CJ system depends on a provable, visible crime and the spin of defense attorneys. Give it up. You just don't like George Bush. Once he's retired, what is your solution?
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post #55 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 02:43 PM
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What I find troubling is that I see criticism of the tactics our military uses to gain access to information that saves American and Allied lives, but I find no alternative solutions presented by those who criticize to replace such tactics they are opposed to, with more effective and more humane methods. But, of course, there is no 'comfortable' way to extract information from an unwilling and/or hostile participant, is there?

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post #56 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 02:46 PM Thread Starter
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JimSmith: you just don't understand that to fight terrorism, our government needs lots of information. This action depends less on pointing one's rifle accurately than previous wars. We're dealing here with projections, plans, motives, techniques and mind-games. It's less a matter of intervention than prevention. And that is why the criminal justice system is ill-equipped to try our enemy; the CJ system depends on a provable, visible crime and the spin of defense attorneys. Give it up. You just don't like George Bush. Once he's retired, what is your solution?
Terrorism is not some affliction that is only directed at the United States. To really combat terrorism, completely different tactics exploiting trust and cooperation of nations similarly affected is needed, not an essentially unilateral military response. George Bush is a known incompetent - his incompetencies unfortunately lie in areas of great importance to our nation's future. The next version may well force us to learn new ways a President can demonstrate incompetence. I would much rather deal with incompetence in the President's personal life instead of at the expense of America's future though, and therefore hope and pray the next President shows signs of being a statesman and a leader, and I really don't care if he has signs of being infected with AIDS or some kind of social disease. Jim
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post #57 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 02:48 PM
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Thank you. And these folks are all in Iraq?
That's where I found them. As far as I know all of them stayed there as well.

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post #58 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by cmitch View Post
What I find troubling is that I see criticism of the tactics our military uses to gain access to information that saves American and Allied lives, but I find no alternative solutions presented by those who criticize to replace such tactics they are opposed to, with more effective and more humane methods. But, of course, there is no 'comfortable' way to extract information from an unwilling and/or hostile participant, is there?
Do you believe that the individuals being subjected to such interrogations in Iraq intend to travel abroad and kill civilians within the borders of the U.S.?

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post #59 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by cmitch View Post
What I find troubling is that I see criticism of the tactics our military uses to gain access to information that saves American and Allied lives, but I find no alternative solutions presented by those who criticize to replace such tactics they are opposed to, with more effective and more humane methods. But, of course, there is no 'comfortable' way to extract information from an unwilling and/or hostile participant, is there?
In light of the views presented in this thread I have decided on trying a new tactic

I'm taking dunkin donuts coffee and a butt load of boston creme donuts. I'll bribe my way into the info

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post #60 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith View Post
Sounds like what you and cmitch and ArmyRover are looking for is when we make their tactics pale by comparison. THEN we will really be the top dog, right?

The discussion here has again been diluted to try to make your flawed solution appear reasonable. You dilute the discussion from a very specific set of acts being perpetrated in the name of the United States of America, by government agencies with the explicit authorization of the executive branch in safe havens off our shores but away from the field of combat, to encompassing siding with the daily decision making crises of the soldier in the field of combat, or not, which is not connected to the original issue and should not be connected in the context of this discussion.

I have spoken a number of times in favor of giving the soldier in the field the benefit of the doubt. I acknowledge the conditions we put them in by sending them to places like Iraq without proper planning , with no clear mission, no clear enemy, no end in sight, and then ask them to expose themselves daily to the potential to be blown to bits or beheaded by a unidentifiable foe are unquestionably unreasonable, and the instinct of each of them to survive such circumstances will force the rest of us to accept some questionable (from the safety of our seats in front of computer screens and tv sets) calls they make as a result.

You are correct - those not there, like me, don't have a valid perspective to be voicing criticism of those who are there living this nightmare. We should also make sure we don't dilute their sacrifice by whitewashing the acts of others not in those same circumstances who are making much more deliberate and considered decisions to act like savages. Extending the acknowledgment of the combat soldiers' much more dire and desperate acts of self preservation where it does not apply , such as to the deliberate and considered tactics of those torturing human beings held as enemy combatants by our government in locations safely outside the battlefield, lessens the respect for the combat soldier's actual circumstances. The situations are not the same and they therefore deserve appropriately different measures of acceptability.

I don't subscribe to giving the agent of torture, like the "dentist" in Marathon Man, or those who would authorize him to carry out torture any benefits of any doubts I acknowledge accrue to the combat soldier in the field making countless serious decisions in the face of direct, life threatening danger. Such acts by agents administering torture at secure facilities around the world in the name of the United States are not the result of life or death decisions being flashed in front of them for real, in real time. These are decisions made studying the captives in situations to learn how best to break them using all means of torture methods that Hollywood or Al-Qaeda have popularized, and then some, over periods of months or years. Water boarding is nothing more than a poster child in this discussion of torture tactics.

The same with holding these guys for years and years. If they are suspected of something specific enough to hold them for years, try them. If they are guilty, shoot them. If they are not guilty, ship them back to where they came from and let them go. Holding them without charges and denying them a trial in a reasonable period of time, is just un-American. We don't do that to mass murders, child molesters, rapists or any other kind of criminal in America, no matter how horrid their crime.

What you are defending is YOUR CHOICE to take the easy way out, plain and simple and you do it by diluting the argument for understanding the combat soldier's situation. Be more barbaric than the enemy, which is the enemy's present tactic, to justify a policy of illegal intervention in other nation's internal affairs is a goal you apparently set for America. Sink to the lowest possible level of humanity because you believe that is the most effective way to deal with the problem your short sighted policies have created, and continue to create that must then be confronted by this nation. I don't share the perspective, the logic or the goal. Jim
Hardly. At no point has anyone here presented a position that we should be as "barbaric" as the enemy. You are also wrong that the discussion is "not connected to the original issue" unless it's your essay that's considered not connected. No one contends that it's OK to blow up civilians, behead people, etc. What we contend is that while distasteful, "waterboarding" is not the worst thing that could happen to an enemy combatant in the process of extracting intel from him. It's far from "sinking to lowest possible level of humanity". As usual, you have tried to read much more into what was posted. It's not my "flawed solution" to anything. It's what needs to be done. "My policy" is not "short sighted" because I don't set policy, nor is it my goal to "justify a policy of illegal intervention in other nation's internal affairs". You say that "We don't do that to mass murders, child molesters, rapists or any other kind of criminal in America, no matter how horrid their crime." Correct. They are AMERICANS as you point out and deserve better. The ENEMY is just that, and do not deserve the protections afforded our citizens. Again, while horrific and distasteful, I'll never lose a wink over this knowing it can and does save the lives of our men in the field. You just do not get it and never will.
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