If YOU Were The CIA Weenie Using Enhanced Interrogation Procedures What Would You Do? - Page 10 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #91 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 08:11 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ArmyRover View Post
I read your post and so far you have accused me of being mentally challenged, functionally illiterate, a murder and not really being a Soldier oh almost forgot needing mental help.
Yeah, diagnosing social or other "personality" disorders is not my strength, and, after reviewing your posts from the beginning it is clear you have been trying to taint the argument against those who have made our flawed policy as an assault against those in the military asked to implement that same flawed policy. I have been careful to distinguish the two roles, and you are hell bent on trying to make them indistinguishable. I may have missed the mark when I was suggesting what your condition might be - it seems just hankering for a confrontation seems to be all that is ailing you.

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On the first count I'm sure you said we were murdering women and childern. and I quote..Ahhh, so in your own words, if you perceive "what needs to be done" is murdering women and children in Iraq (seems we have already done this, and are directly responsible for setting the conditions for insurgents to continue that practice at a much accelerated rate), or beheading, or whatever, so be it.

excuse me for reading your statement or did you mean something else with this? If this isn't what you meant then please clarify for my mentally challenged ass. This also runs right along with calling me a murder.
First, the response you have quoted was written in response to a specific suggestion by someone else that, when deciding whether or not a policy of torture or barbarism was suitable for America, the only criteria to be considered was "what needs to be done." This was not your post, and my response was not directed to you, and, taken in context of the entire discussion it was clearly not accusing soldiers of murdering women and children, although innocent women and children have been killed by our military in pursuit of those flawed policies. I specifically did not lay the responsibility at the feet of the soldiers ordered to carry out the "mission" and anyone who reads my posts knows if that was my intention it would have been stated clearly. I used the word "We" to put the responsibility on Americans as a whole and it is up to us to influence our elected representatives to change the policy if we object to it. I also separated the "or beheading, or whatever" from the statement of fact concerning the deaths of innocents as a consequence of our policy, by the punctuation I used. That was meant to separate the latter from things we have done, and leave the latter to be the items a policy of pursuing only "what needs to done" without any moderation by the American conscience might add.

It was never stated that soldiers are purposely increasing civilian losses, merely that significant civilian Iraqi losses have been incurred carrying out the US national policy issued from the White House. All to make the point that regardless of the intent of the policy makers, the sons, daughters, wives and husbands, or brothers or sisters of the "accidentally killed" Iraqis are suffering the same loss as relatives of 9-11 victims in the USA. Yet there is no recognition of this horror we have inflicted on the Iraqi people - even a suggestion that it is on par with the 9-11 event we experienced. In fact, it has lasted nearly 5 years and purposefully or not, our policy is ruining Iraq, while 9-11 was a one day event that pales by comparison. Unless you value human life differently depending on the nationality of the humans and all these unintended consequences just roll off your back because it is along the way to getting done "what needs to be done." I did not suggest this was your perspective either, as this discussion was not in response to your post.

So without reading into my comments something to scratch that itch you have to make criticism of the policy an assault on the troops, my only intent to piss you off was when I suggested you can't read, or had some ulterior motive for taking things I wrote out of context. Seems you can read but are suffering from some chip on your shoulder. Understand, even guys like me are grateful for your service - I just wish we weren't consuming your energy, ability and dedication on such a poorly conceived policy.

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Originally Posted by ArmyRover View Post
I will add at this point I am a Soldier I have done my duty, I'm still doing my duty and will continue to do so.

As for repeating a 60's mantra I apologize I wasn't alive in the 60's I didn't come on the scene till the second half of the 70's so I missed that one. My apologies for lumping you together with the tree hugging hippies of the 60's.

As for have I murdered anyone no I haven't have I killed insurgents in combat yes does it keep me up some nights? Yes I wouldn't be human if it doesn't.

So while you play keyboard quarter back some of us are out there making the decisions and completing the mission.

Oh and remember I can say anything I like to you it's covered by the first amendment.
Glad to hear you don't enjoy killing other humans. Makes you human too. There was some doubt for a while.

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I read your post though and it's my uneducated opinion that you called the US Military murders so tell that to any Soldier Sailor Marine or Airmen to their face and see the response you get see if it's different then mine.
I think I clarified that if I intended to say I thought any soldier, sailor, marine or airman was a murderer, I would have used way fewer words as that is a much simpler point to try to make than the one I tried to make. I suggest you coat that sensitive spot with this stuff I use on my feet after a few days in my ski boots at the beginning of the season. I think it goes by the trade name "Tough Skin" and it should make the criticism of our national policy easier to keep distinguished from attacks on soldiers for carrying out that policy. Or not. You can continue to enjoy what you do. It is your right as an American. Jim
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post #92 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 08:20 PM Thread Starter
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I'm guessing that's highway so low 20's in town then? either way that's still almost double or better than I'm getting now.
Actually around town can be mid 20's or higher. Diesels like that model evolved to be taxis and they spend most of their operating lives in city driving. They barely use any fuel idling, and don't need to be revved to keep up with the anemic traffic patterns in most European cities. The manual transmission is set up for city driving and not highway driving. The noise at highway speeds can be almost scary.

If you can find one that is relatively rust free, buy it. If you are mechanically inclined there is little on this engine that is truly baffling. The use of vacuum for all the functions on the W123 series is somewhat of a mystery as after 20 plus years hardly any of the system is up to snuff, and weird leaks make for confounding diagnostic exercises. Jim
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post #93 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 08:41 PM
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I think we'll go with agree to disagree, since your not going to change my views and I'm not going to change yours

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post #94 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 08:47 PM
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Generally we didn't run into the problem of finding cache's or bomb making materials in homes. I never had any situations like that. So I honestly can't say.
Well, if all your accounts of these activities and the terms under which they were carried out are true, then you may very well be the "legitimate" face of the policies in question. It seems very conceivable that MI takes the subjects you hand over, then tortures them into revealing the names of their friends, family members and acquaintances, which in turn exposes those people to the same torture techniques. Now, we have the very real possibility that perfectly innocent folks are subjected to unspeakably shameful acts. Clearly, I'm speculating, but in the absence of sunlight, my concerns are valid and worthy of exploration.
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post #95 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 09:35 PM
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Yes you are right because those have been outsourced to Moroccans and Egyptians. What do you have to say about that?
Believe me, not everything was or is "outsourced", and Jim, you are sadly mistaken. I was not the one who suggested it was OK to murder anyone, especially women and children. That's your quote. Collateral damage is a shame, and I've no doubt some actual murders have taken place at the hands of our people. The difference is, we don't condone, promote, or allow it, as opposed to those who celebrate it. You should be ashamed to compare the two.
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post #96 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 09:42 PM
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Believe me, not everything was or is "outsourced", and Jim, you are sadly mistaken. I was not the one who suggested it was OK to murder anyone, especially women and children. That's your quote. Collateral damage is a shame, and I've no doubt some actual murders have taken place at the hands of our people. The difference is, we don't condone, promote, or allow it, as opposed to those who celebrate it. You should be ashamed to compare the two.
define everything!
I am certain that our hands are clean from brutal interrogation or am I too naive to think that we pretend to be civilized?
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post #97 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 09:46 PM Thread Starter
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Believe me, not everything was or is "outsourced", and Jim, you are sadly mistaken. I was not the one who suggested it was OK to murder anyone, especially women and children. That's your quote. Collateral damage is a shame, and I've no doubt some actual murders have taken place at the hands of our people. The difference is, we don't condone, promote, or allow it, as opposed to those who celebrate it. You should be ashamed to compare the two.
I think if you asked a neutral observer, there is little real difference to the relatives of those classified as collateral damage or murder in whether or not we celebrate the events as long as we allow them to continue, without end. The difference you paint as so significant is in your, not neutral observer's mind, for your personal benefit. It makes you feel better about the whole thing by making it easier to delude yourself into believing that somehow it is all ok because we didn't celebrate the horror we inflicted. If you stop to look at what is going on, the policy bringing these deeds about is just not in our or anyone else's best interest. Jim
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post #98 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 11:47 PM
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Plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by JimSmith View Post

trying to taint the argument against those who have made our flawed policy as an assault against those in the military asked to implement that same flawed policy.

you have to make criticism of the policy an assault on the troops,

Jim

There it is, right there: The entire Bush/Cheney/Rove Republican playbook for all to see.

It is so simple.

The chess player and the pawns on the chessboard.

The arm wielding the hammer, and the hammer.


It worked so long. Gingrich used it the other day: "Anti defending the USA"
(did Iraq attack us?) "Anti the troops"



It is amazing, it lasted so long, trying to turn the whole nation into a bunch of yellow ribbon waving bleating sheep to support such partisan, political, money making objectives, the agenda of a cynical, immoral, ruthless, depraved and craven group.

Jim
<--- superschnelle 300 hp 10:1 ECE euro HV, Hochverdichtung = high compression (11/2011) ... Wie im Freien Fall. Nur horizontal.


"I swear to god, it's like I live in a trailer of common sense, and stare out the window at a tornado of stupidity." >'='<
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post #99 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-11-2007, 07:26 AM
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define everything!
I am certain that our hands are clean from brutal interrogation or am I too naive to think that we pretend to be civilized?
Look guys, I've already said that we as a Government are doing things that would leave you agasp. What you self righteous Bush bashers don't get is that it has happened under the nose of, and with the consent of, plenty of other administrations, so get over it. If you think your (insert liberal poster boy for human rights) favorite President had/has "clean hands", you are all a lot dumber than you sound (and I mean that in a kind way). I wonder where we'd be if a Dem had been at the reigns when 9/11 happened? How much different would things be? We as a nation were all calling for someones head on a platter. How happy would we be if a liberal Dem was at the helm and did nothing. What would the outcome had been if say, Hillary was running the show (who voted for the war) now that we're 5+ years into it? What her exit strategy would have been? The answer to the original question is still the same.
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post #100 of 149 (permalink) Old 12-11-2007, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
Well, if all your accounts of these activities and the terms under which they were carried out are true, then you may very well be the "legitimate" face of the policies in question. It seems very conceivable that MI takes the subjects you hand over, then tortures them into revealing the names of their friends, family members and acquaintances, which in turn exposes those people to the same torture techniques. Now, we have the very real possibility that perfectly innocent folks are subjected to unspeakably shameful acts. Clearly, I'm speculating, but in the absence of sunlight, my concerns are valid and worthy of exploration.
Does anyone know whether this scenario actually takes place as a matter of MI protocols? Anyone?
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