Ron Paul starts his run at NH - Page 6 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #51 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-15-2007, 04:10 PM Thread Starter
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I think it's ridiculous to bemoan the state of affairs in Washington, then simultaneously shoot down anyone of principle who fails to meet some messianic high-bar or doesn't carry a truck-load full of completed plans for each of the policy changes they advocate.
You and me both. I hate to say it, but I believe we're seeing the Democrat fuck-up-a-free-lunch mentality in action.

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post #52 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-15-2007, 08:49 PM
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I think it's ridiculous to bemoan the state of affairs in Washington, then simultaneously shoot down anyone of principle who fails to meet some messianic high-bar or doesn't carry a truck-load full of completed plans for each of the policy changes they advocate.
It is not ridiculous to expect a candidate who offers a different approach to provide a map of that approach. Otherwise what is to differentiate, say a Dr. Paul from any of the other candidates, with the exception that Dr. Paul is "marketing" to a different target audience?

I am NOT suggesting that is what is happening, I just think that if folks start trumpeting a different direction, a different way of doing things from the norm, they need to provide either hard experience to show that they have succeeded in executing that type of agenda before OR they need to provide a plan that will stand up to scrutiny so folks can see if their ideas actually have working merit.

I say that whether it is a Healthcare Plan from Clinton/Edwards or a Reduction of Government plan from Dr. Paul or an Invasion Plan from Bush/Rudy. Blind Faith is what got us into Iraq and $9Trillion in Debt.

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post #53 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-15-2007, 08:52 PM
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^ Pissing in the wind, all of it. Hillary or Obama can have the best laid plans in the world - they need the legislative to execute them. Fat freaking chance.

Agreeing to compromise our standards and accept candidates who are more intent on being President than defending the Constitution and the people is what got us $9T in debt.
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post #54 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-15-2007, 09:04 PM
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^ Pissing in the wind, all of it. Hillary or Obama can have the best laid plans in the world - they need the legislative to execute them. Fat freaking chance.

Agreeing to compromise our standards and accept candidates who are more intent on being President than defending the Constitution and the people is what got us $9T in debt.
So the solution is to back someone who has a very good idea but no plan and NO POLITICAL BASE to execute that idea?

Whiteboard the problem. The IDEA is very good. It drops off hard soon afterwards. Much like the folks in the Sixties and Seventies who wanted to change the world, they found that the only way to change it is from within the system, NOT from the outside. And that requires a real plan, not just an idea. That has been done.

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post #55 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-15-2007, 09:09 PM
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Not entirely sure what you mean by "no political base"...surely you don't mean to suggest that President Paul would be unable to load up the White House with smart, energetic, like-minded individuals intent on becoming the system of change? If so, you might want to tour, oh just about any Div 1-A campus in the country. You may start at USC, cause the weather's nice there.
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post #56 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-15-2007, 09:11 PM
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If you want to change the way Washington works, COMPLETELY, the only way to do that is to start building a strong THIRD PARTY to gain a SWING in the House. It has to be large enough and strong enough to hold together and be able to provide a Super Majority to who ever is providing the closest deal for the target. Same in the Senate. You don't have to start with a Majority, just a SWING. But that is the only way to execute a change in this government. The two party system will not change otherwise. And they control the power, even with a President like Bush.

So, the primary focus for any group should be the strengthening of the Libertarian Party, or whatever party that wants to carry the torch. But they gotta have a real plan, not just a great idea.

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post #57 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-15-2007, 09:15 PM
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Not entirely sure what you mean by "no political base"...surely you don't mean to suggest that President Paul would be unable to load up the White House with smart, energetic, like-minded individuals intent on becoming the system of change? If so, you might want to tour, oh just about any Div 1-A campus in the country. You may start at USC, cause the weather's nice there.
Not talking about that at all. I am talking about the entrenched Republican and Democrat Senators and Congressmen who have agendas that would not change just because a President Paul was in the White House. The Mitch McConnells or Danny Hasterts would be missing as would be the entire NeoCon base.

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post #58 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-15-2007, 09:25 PM Thread Starter
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You're suggesting reasons that Dr. Paul may not be entirely successful in regard to his designs, which is apparently enough to stop you from supporting his effort. What kind of thinking is that? Oh yeah, the kind that supports the status quo. Well, don't fret -- it's a near certainty that you'll get exactly what you hope for.

I will tell you what Dr. Paul can accomplish with little or no support from Congress or any political machine. He can effectively reduce the power of the executive and demand that Congress start living up to it's Constitutional responsibilities, and he can recall American troops from foreign soil, and initiate a new brand of non-interventionist foreign policy that doesn't rely on military force.

So tell me bear, what are you more afraid of? That he'll succeed on some level or that he'll fail? You seem to be forwarding both arguments, which makes no sense at all. Why not support the man and give him a chance? Do you really believe his effort can leave our federal government and our country more fucked up than it already is?

Remember, this isn't some political neophyte we're talking about, he's a 10-term U.S. Congressman who knows his way around Washington all too well.

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post #59 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-15-2007, 09:39 PM
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I believe he would leave this country infinitely more fucked up than it already is! Dr. Paul scares Dr. Jayhawk to death...

Don't believe everything you think
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post #60 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-15-2007, 09:39 PM
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You're suggesting reasons that Dr. Paul may not be entirely successful in regard to his designs, which is apparently enough to stop you from supporting his effort. What kind of thinking is that? Oh yeah, the kind that supports the status quo. Well, don't fret -- it's a near certainty that you'll get what you hope for.

I will tell you what Dr. Paul can accomplish with little or no support from Congress or any political machine. He can effectively reduce the power of the executive and demand that Congress start living up to it's Constitutional responsibilities, and he can recall American troops from foreign soil, and initiate a new brand of non-interventionist foreign policy that doesn't rely on military force

So tell me bear, what are you more afraid of? That he'll succeed on some level or that he'll fail? You seem to be forwarding both arguments, which makes no sense at all. Why not support the man and give him a chance? Do you really believe his effort can leave our federal government and our country more fucked up than it already is?
I agree that the reduction of the Executive and a change in foreign policy is a very good thing. I have no problem with that.

What am I afraid of? Mainly that he will get sufficient momentum to splinter from the Republican Party after not getting a nomination [which seems somewhat obvious at this juncture] and syphon votes from the middle enough to allow another NeoCon to occupy the White House.

I like many of the ideas that he has put forth. I have said that for months. My problem is with any person that comes in tangentially that if they don't have a PLAN that is bulletproof then they just manage to stir the pot without any positive results. Ross Perot was such a candidate.

So to be very clear, I would be more than willing to back the man if he provided a reasonable plan as to how he intended to address the myriad of issues that he brings up in the ideas that he presents on his web site and on speeches. Simply how he intends to build coalitions within Congress and what his discussions with Governors on the pushing of services and obligations to States have yielded would be a start.

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