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post #41 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-14-2007, 08:13 PM
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What I don't see is the real alternative. Using data from the first paragraphs of the article:
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Originally Posted by chicagotribune
No more Department of Education. No more Federal Reserve Bank. No more Medicare or Medicaid. No more membership in the United Nations or NATO. No more federal drug laws. And, no more U.S. troops in Iraq -- or anywhere else on foreign soil.

The Internal Revenue Service would be history...
While the platform says it would move to the States to address, that only MOVES taxes, does not remove them. It makes 50 bureaucracies to address many issues. While some things can be pushed down to the States level, Addressing our current debt cannot.

If you remove the current IRS and it's infrastructure, who is going to address the current $9Trillion National Debt? While it may be cool to say China can eat their 13% but many folks with Savings Bonds and T-Notes might be less likely to enjoy that. Without an IRS, we now have 50 Treasuries who may or may not pay into a national fund to pay the National Debt.

Infrastructure. Who pays for the Roads, Airports, Air Traffic Control Systems, Customs? Without an IRS there does not seem to be a collection source from which to draw funds.

Ah, the States. Now if each state continues its current philosophy of "winging it" but this time with everyone's health as an example, you are going to end up with some states that have good Medicare systems for retired folks suddenly being swamped by retirees who have shopped states for the best medical care. So good Medicare State will now be OVERBURDENED with fiscal requirements to its taxpayers and who will it go to for assistance? Or will we also have new citizenship requirements to keep people from retiring in its state?

While I truly disagree with the efficiencies of our Federal Government, I can't even imagine the myriad of levels of inefficiency that would be brought to bear with 50 separate governments trying to take over the level of Revenue and Bureaucratic requirements that this decentralization would demand. Sounds really good chatting about it in the den. Execution would be an Fn nightmare on every level.

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post #42 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-14-2007, 08:35 PM Thread Starter
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Dr. Paul has no delusions of reinventing our government overnight. His goal is to initiate a trend toward smaller government, and to point out the waste of unneeded bureaucracies such as the department of education and the IRS. He will have to fight the Senate and Congress tooth and nail in order to accomplish it. The one thing he can do is recall our military from overseas, and save our country hundreds of billions of dollars in the process.

You must think the man a lunatic to believe that he just intends to dismantle the IRS without having any notions in regard to buying down the national debt and making certain that we have a balanced budget toward the betterment of our nation. He is not an idiot, and it would take generations to accomplish all or most of his goals. You would do well to assume that he has thought these matters through much more thoroughly than you, and do a little research to fill in the gaps. You'll find there is no shortage of available information on Dr. Paul on the Internet.

If you're interested in reducing the size and scope of our federal government, and reducing the power of the executive, you must support Dr. Paul. There is no alternative, and another may not come along during our lifetime. In eight years, the man will be 80 years old. What do you think he can accomplish in that time, if he manages to live that long?

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #43 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-14-2007, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar View Post
Dr. Paul has no delusions about reinventing our government overnight. His goal is to initiate a trend toward smaller government, and to point out the waste of unneeded bureaucracies such as the department of education and the IRS. He will have to fight the Senate and Congress tooth and nail in order to accomplish it. The one thing he can do is recall our military from overseas, and save our country hundreds of billions of dollars in the process.

You must think the man a lunatic to believe that he just intends to dismantle the IRS without having any notions in regard to buying down the national debt and making certain that we have a balanced budget toward the betterment of our nation. He is not an idiot, and it would take generations to accomplish all of his goals. You would do well to assume that he has thought these matters through much more thoroughly than you, and do a little research. You'll find there is no shortage of available information on Dr. Paul on the Internet.

If you're interested in reducing the size and scope of our federal government, and reducing the power of the executive, you must support Dr. Paul. There is no alternative, and another may not come along during our lifetime. In eight years, the man will be 80 years old. What do you think he can accomplish in that time, if he manages to live that long?
I went out to the various web sites and tried to find the meat to the policies that he suggests but have not found any. That is where my concern is. While I don't think him a lunatic, I have not seen anything on his website other than a half page generalizations on the subject of taxes or government reduction.

My concern with "reducing the size and scope of our federal government" which has merit, is how, when all of the fundamental services that are resized and rescoped are pushed to States that action does not cause MORE government and MORE problems than the current centralized system.

I am much more interested in reducing the size and scope of the programs within the current Federal system than trying to reinvent the wheel and foisting programs off onto States where you have a nightmare of opportunities for failure.

Now as for our current Nation building excesses, I agree completely with Dr. Paul but so far his restructuring of government and economic plans lack enough detail [even 30,000 ft detail] in which one can draw conclusions as to their potential.

McBear,
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post #44 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-14-2007, 09:15 PM
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^ Like Ron said, the President isn't empowered by himself to do those things. Should he be elected, I think you could consider it a mandate, and the slow process of efficiently reducing or eliminating unnecessary government services begins. The faster the better, frankly. As he'll tell you, the country wasn't doing to bad before federal income taxes in the early 1900's.

MsMoney.com - Taxes - The U.S. Tax System
The IRS has more than 100,000 employees. By contrast, the FBI employs just over 11,000 people.
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post #45 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-15-2007, 11:27 AM
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^ Like Ron said, the President isn't empowered by himself to do those things. Should he be elected, I think you could consider it a mandate, and the slow process of efficiently reducing or eliminating unnecessary government services begins. The faster the better, frankly. As he'll tell you, the country wasn't doing to bad before federal income taxes in the early 1900's.

MsMoney.com - Taxes - The U.S. Tax System
The IRS has more than 100,000 employees. By contrast, the FBI employs just over 11,000 people.
I agree the IRS is bloated. Of course everyone wants to simplify it but everyone wants to keep their deductions for their kids and their mortgage and write off their business losses [even if it is a hobby business]. The tax code could be simplified in a heartbeat but no one wants to do it. If you do straight Percentage of income those who make more will say they are paying more actual dollars. If you do a POS TAX the poor pay a disproportionate amount of tax for necessities.

"As he'll tell you, the country wasn't doing to bad before federal income taxes in the early 1900's." If he thinks this is even close to the same world as the early 1900s, and can begin to compare the fiscal requirements of the nation then and now, I don't want him anywhere near the White House.

In the early 1900's we did not have electricity in 1/4 of homes, we had no national road system, no way of guaranteeing commerce could be conducted from state to state, no communications infrastructure, no security infrastructure, no health infrastructure outside of major cities. Yep, the country wasn't doing to bad in the early 1900's.

The deeper I have looked over the past two weeks into Paul I realize there is no deeper. If someone is going to come up with the radical changes as Paul has suggested and if he is going to accept a "mandate" to execute these changes through the bully pulpit of the White House then these radical changes need to have much more depth and detail than have been published and addressed.

All I have seen so far is "I want a government that is smaller in size and scope. I want a government that does not have an aggressive Foreign Policy". The words are very good. I agree completely with those philosophies but the methodology on how to get there, in a different way than has been tried before is missing.

We have gone too many election cycles where pols promise a chicken in every pot or to provide a balanced budget or to keep us out of debt or to not meddle in foreign governments. It is time for everyone to demand more than just the pretty bumper sticker slogans. We need the details NOW if we are going to make decisions as to who actually can DO what they spin.

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post #46 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-15-2007, 11:37 AM
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^ As always, I cannot disagree with your perceptions and conclusions. I guess we'll have to elect either Hillary/Obama or Rudy/Romney instead, and put up with more of the same incessant ass-raping bullshit we've had to stomach for the past 18 years or so.

There's a clinical definition of insanity, that blankets people who 'do the same thing repeatedly, expecting different results each time'.

Surely you can appreciate or even get behind a person whose fundamental beliefs are in perfect alignment with the constitution (meaning in perfect opposition to every other candidate, esp. vis a vis the Iraq war), and whose abilities to affect change are kept in-check by the legislature?
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post #47 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-15-2007, 02:11 PM
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^ As always, I cannot disagree with your perceptions and conclusions. I guess we'll have to elect either Hillary/Obama or Rudy/Romney instead, and put up with more of the same incessant ass-raping bullshit we've had to stomach for the past 18 years or so.

There's a clinical definition of insanity, that blankets people who 'do the same thing repeatedly, expecting different results each time'.

Surely you can appreciate or even get behind a person whose fundamental beliefs are in perfect alignment with the constitution (meaning in perfect opposition to every other candidate, esp. vis a vis the Iraq war), and whose abilities to affect change are kept in-check by the legislature?
I would like to see a monumental change in the way things are run. I think it would be best for the country. But unless it is initiated with a detailed plan that everyone can get behind, it is not really a plan, just a hope. And in the past, candidates who have tried to come in from the outside with a vastly different view of the way things should be run only end up pulling a small percentage away from one or the other of the major candidates and we end up with a minority elected president.

If we are truly going to have this kind of initiative, which I think is very sound, it has to be built up over a longer period, with both Presidential and Congressional candidates who can provide a complete platform which might be able to actually carry a mandate. What ends up happening, however is we get a candidate that wants to be a "wild duck", stir things up with very good ideas, gets some backing but not enough backing to actually run a $100M+ Presidential Campaign. Grassroots are good but they are shallow and do not have the support structure required to handle a candidate that can both present AND deliver a mandate.

Hopefully that will change but it will require keeping the energy of a Paul type campaign consistently into the 2010 Congressional races, then 2012, then, by 2016 there might be sufficient infrastructure and backing to actually build a viable candidate that can buck the status quo. Until then we are stuck with HillaryObawards and RudyMcRomney

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post #48 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-15-2007, 02:16 PM Thread Starter
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Until then we are stuck with HillaryObawards and RudyMcRomney
That is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Every great journey begins with a single step.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #49 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-15-2007, 02:32 PM
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One thing I find alot when I watch any of the debates is answers that have no action in them either. All I see are canidates saying what they think Americans want to hear. I see Dr. Paul saying what he thinks needs to be fixed. He gives little concern to if it is what the American public wants to hear. The longest journey always starts with the first step.
A policy of better fiscal management and the reduction of earmarks can be that first step. I am an immigrant to this country and I was not raise with the entitlement mentality that a small percentage of people have. I feel I get more out of life if I do it on my own. I am very happy with what I have achieved. I think that people feel better about themselves when they accomplish a goal on there own.
When the amount of taxation is reduced that will allow for the creation of private welfare programs that will be more effective in helping those that really need help . I am not opposed to helping those that want to help themselves but the government system we have now does very little to improve peoples lives.
No canidate is perfect. They all have a few things that one does not find appealling, but for me Dr. Paul is the best choice in the bunch. Unfortunately he chances are so slim. At least I am glad that he is helping to get people talking.
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post #50 of 91 (permalink) Old 11-15-2007, 03:31 PM
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^ The reasons candidates are saying what they think people want to hear, is because it allows them to keep their real agenda hidden behind their facade.

Mitt Romney still has chunks of removal gel caked on him, fresh from the "President" mold from which he was borne. Don't be confused into thinking that ANY of these candidates (Paul excluded) does not have a very thorough, long-term agenda for their time in office. Anyone who raises the kind of money Hillary, Obama, Romney, Giuliani, etc. have raised and spent so far have LOTS of pipers to pay. Each of those interests run contrary to those of the people.

I think it's ridiculous to bemoan the state of affairs in Washington, then simultaneously shoot down anyone of principle who fails to meet some messianic high-bar or doesn't carry a truck-load full of completed plans for each of the policy changes they advocate.
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