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post #31 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-26-2007, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Jakarta Expat View Post
So a man (any man) picking himself up by his bootstraps, working hard and doing the right thing is not the right way to go about things. You trying to set the blacks that have made good back twenty years?
I appreciate your response in my comments, but you missed the part where I said there are successful Black people out there. You also may have missed the part where I said the Black buying power has grown tremendously in the past 40 years. I have advocated this plenty of times here in the OT section. Certain restaurants in places such as Brooklyn, and Harlem have had to add better wines to their menu do to this growth.

Take the now into count a positive affect of self conditioning that has happened since we as Black people found out we can do things in society. We on a whole have change many things, such as becoming Team owners, bigger investments into stock, commodities, real estate, entertainment, law, politics, the list goes on.

When we as a people see people like Opra, or Jay-Z, or Condi-Rice, or Powell, we do feel better about our situation and where we are from. Thats all it took. It takes 40 years of open success stories to get rid of the images instilled in all of us of Black men hanging from a tree, or images of a sign that says whites only.

Now in todays world we are applying for bigger loans, opening businesses, we are getting better test scores and are succeeding at things we weren't even allowed to try.

But, the thread wasn't about the successful aspects of Black people, I answered it according to the subject topic because there is two sides to the story.






3. Paul Hamm, Gymnast: I owe a lot to my parents, especially my mother and father.
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post #32 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-26-2007, 12:12 PM
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I know plenty of successful black people. I've worked for & with them, and have had blacks work for me. I'm curious as to what a black person perceives as the primary reasons there aren't more of them which are 'successful'.
I think that you have to look further afield than the USA for the answer to this question, as in every developed country that black Africans have moved into they have become the new underclass.

You had Emancipation in the US in 1862. That's a very long time to make such little progress.

In the UK we had mass immigration from Jamaica in the 1960s. In every test of education, employment, welfare benefits, etc., the second & third generation of the UK black population tops the lists for poor achievement. This is not so for the new Asian immigrant communities here.

If it is not (dare I say it) a 'genetic problem' - what is it?
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post #33 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-26-2007, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by slybydesignw210 View Post
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Truth be told, now its up to Black people like myself and others to teach our kids not to hate because of this. 2 Negatives don't make a right. It truly has to do with ones self. Yes, there are more under privileged Black people living in American Cities then there are successful but keep in mind, the Black buying power has changed in the past 40 years and now we as a market group have become very powerful in the scope of the American Economy.

You are what you make your self to be, I am SlyByDesign. If I constantly told myself that I am in the hood, I am Black so they wont like me, I need to be a thug to gain respect from my peers or I need to fight the "System" because its built against me, my family was suppressed so I am suppressed than these are the natural things I believe and release on the world.

I can go on about where I am from and what I did, but I will say this, that if any body truly believes there can be a change in the mentality of "us" Black people it would have to start at the heart of the problem. Self doubt, we have to some how re-train the thought of a group of people that they can make something better of them selves. We have to put into place a system not structured to make some one feel helpless but helped. We have to put into affect better learning centers for deprived areas.


you are very enlightened.

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馬鹿は死ななきゃ治らない。

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post #34 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-26-2007, 12:25 PM
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I don't think it is welfare that has caused the issue, as much as it is a lack of opportunity for an entire subset of people in this country. There are millions, black, white and Hispanic that live in a tiered system that makes it hard for them to get out. Some do, but to try and assign welfare to it is wrong as many folks living in the same general condition are hard working people in low paying jobs and in the service industries that are just barely making it.

The system, as it exists now is not set up for everyone to succeed. That is a very sad fact. The education system is a political football where funds are tossed around to everywhere but students and the fundamental education of kids is not improving, black, white or Hispanic. That is not a welfare, or welfare state problem. It is a societal problem.

It sounds like you are trying to force an argument that "Welfare is bad, make it stop - I need evidence to support that premise". Sure there are welfare abuses and folks who are caught up in that cycle but look at the mitigating circumstances that contribute to that cycle instead of just trying to pin it to the Welfare system. That system has helped many more people than it has hurt.

And when you ask "why is it allowed to perpetuate?", make sure you also have a plan to back fill the unintended consequences of the kind of change you are suggesting.

Nicely put.


I will admit something to ya'll that I don't mind saying because this topic is good.

When I turned 15 years old I had to put myself on Welfare. It was a horrible experience, it was degrading to the soul. Having to walk into the welfare office was like walking into a jail with no bars. You are treated like shit in the system. I was on it because I needed it. I fought for the help it wasn't handed to me, funny ha. But here is the twist, once I was on it, I used it to the best of my knowledge.

Knowing that its there as a stepping stone and not being comfortable with it helped me excel at a rapid rate.

I used it to buy food, pay rent, and car fair to look for jobs. All the while training myself on how to right resumes. I am lucky I felt this way. It broke my heart to see others in the Welfare office broken down, no hope in there eyes. You can tell who would make it and who wouldn't. You can see the direct pain in their hearts, you can tell who would die on welfare and who would rise to the occasion to change their view of them selves.

I needed to see and experience that so as I may become stronger. But please keep in mind not all of us (any body black, white or otherwise) reacts the same way to intense situations.

My reaction and self motivation came from the fact that I knew I could be successful if given a chance. I stopped knocking on doors, and figured out how to make them. I stopped looking for some one to say yes and created my own answers. I stopped waiting for the window of opportunity and realized early that I can be A CREATOR of opportunity. See, were I am heading. I mentally conditioned my thoughts and self being to produce the life style I choose. I never ever ever let whats around me control me but bettered my self by telling my self I am better then my situation.

That's the point I have been trying to make. You know how hard it is to tell 100,000's of people to "DONT WORRY" IT OK., when all they see is death, drugs, cops, guns. Have you ever stopped and asked a younger person of whom wears the baggy pants or a gang banger if they even wanted to be in that situation. I have and the majority of the time the answer is no, its all I have known.

I strongly think and firmly believe if there is going to be change, then the change needs to take place in the hearts and minds of the people needing the help. Changing the surroundings, eliminating self doubt and self pitty and thats just human nature, not a race factor.






3. Paul Hamm, Gymnast: I owe a lot to my parents, especially my mother and father.

Last edited by slybydesign; 10-26-2007 at 12:35 PM.
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post #35 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-26-2007, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by keyhole View Post
I think that you have to look further afield than the USA for the answer to this question, as in every developed country that black Africans have moved into they have become the new underclass.

You had Emancipation in the US in 1862. That's a very long time to make such little progress.

In the UK we had mass immigration from Jamaica in the 1960s. In every test of education, employment, welfare benefits, etc., the second & third generation of the UK black population tops the lists for poor achievement. This is not so for the new Asian immigrant communities here.

If it is not (dare I say it) a 'genetic problem' - what is it?
I will answer your question. And it makes me feel good to say this. Its not genetic---I appose this with my life.

Its systematic. Having a big "***" is genetic. Something that is systematic is learned through years of conditioning. Any body who thinks its genetic with "no disrespect to any one here or else where" is just as or even stupider that the "facts" they derive this.

If I moved to Japan right now, I would fail every fucking test they through at me. If I moved to Hungry I would fail every test they gave me, hence deeming me insufficient to join society "Of that culture". Man, put it together.






3. Paul Hamm, Gymnast: I owe a lot to my parents, especially my mother and father.
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post #36 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-26-2007, 12:42 PM Thread Starter
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Your insight and candor are exactly what I was hoping for, and I really appreciate it.

To mcbear's points (and to everyone), please be patient before leaping off on a tangential assumption about my motives - I don't have an answer I'm hoping to substantiate, I'm tyring to have an invigorating discussion.

Back to your experiences, Sly...it seems to me anyway that the people who are (as you said) "broken down", with "no hope in their eyes" are often considered lost causes. If there's a mother of five sitting in a welfare office at age 40, people with even the best of intentions probably feel their efforts would be better spent helping someone younger to succeed because she's too old, and too conditioned to be shown the light. Would you agree with that perception?

Along those lines, I'm not sure the hypothetical young man you described (the gang banger who does what he does because it's all he knows) will be very receptive to advice on how to make something of himself from anyone, let alone some white guy. Is part of this issue - the perpetuation of this black underclass and the self-destructive behaviors it entails - due to the lack of successful role models to which young people can relate? Would you agree that blacks who have become successful have a duty to actively, vigorously spread the message of 'hope', because they're possibly the only people who can?

With all due respect, whoever is in charge of the NAACP, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, et al, don't appear to be very influential in this regard. Bill Cosby said lots of things that were A) true, and B) needed to be said, and he was villified for it. What do you think is the trick here to being able to reach the next generation before they too become hopelessly enveloped in a self-destructive culture?
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post #37 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-26-2007, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by slybydesignw210 View Post
I will answer your question. And it makes me feel good to say this. Its not genetic---I appose this with my life.

Its systematic. Having a big "***" is genetic. Something that is systematic is learned through years of conditioning. Any body who thinks its genetic with "no disrespect to any one here or else where" is just as or even stupider that the "facts" they derive this.

If I moved to Japan right now, I would fail every fucking test they through at me. If I moved to Hungry I would fail every test they gave me, hence deeming me insufficient to join society "Of that culture". Man, put it together.
Now can you explain the Rubber Band Man and how he has acquired so much office supplies that he is able to just give them out indiscriminately?


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post #38 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-26-2007, 12:56 PM Thread Starter
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The importance of culture keeps coming back to me, Sly. I wonder if you've seen this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Aaron
I can remember being a kid back in Mobile sitting on the back porch when an airplane flew over. I told my father when I grew up I was going to be a pilot. You know what he said? He said, "Ain't no colored pilots."

So I told him I'd be a ballplayer. And he said, "Ain't no colored ballplayers." There were a lot of things blacks couldn't be back then. There weren't any colored pilots. There weren't any colored ballplayers in the major leagues. So it was hard to have those dreams.

Then Jackie came with the Brooklyn Dodgers to Mobile for an exhibition game in 1948. I went to hear him talk to a crowd in front of a drugstore. I skipped school to meet Jackie Robinson. If it were on videotape, you'd probably see me standing there with my mouth wide open.

I don't remember what he said. It didn't matter what he said. He was standing there.

My father took me to see Jackie play in that exhibition game. After that day, he never told me ever again that I couldn't be a ballplayer.

I was allowed to dream after that.
Jackie Robinson and Hank Aaron are both great examples of African-Americans who found a way out. But pay attention to the words Aaron's father used with him.

"Ain't no colored pilots."

"Ain't no colored ball players."

This stuck with me because it was the first real evidence I saw of the type of self-imposed oppression of youth that seems prevalent in the inner cities, and which seems so completely unnatural to me as a white parent. I'd never, ever imagine telling my kid there was something he couldn't do...quite the opposite. Not because I'm white, but because I'm an American.

I'd imagine that not every black inner city father carries around so much anger and despair that he tells his kids that they can't do anything in life because they're black, but one or two probably do...and their kids will probably convey that message to their friends, who have lots of influence over one another, and so the cycle continues. It seems very rare that someone would stand up and ask "Why? Why can't we become whatever we want? Because our dad said so? Where's that rule written down?"

Those rare people, who asked that question, got the answer everyone else gets (there is no reason), and became whatever they wanted, are the people best suited to change the mentality of those in blighted inner-cities. My $.02 anyway - curious, as always, as to your perception of this Sly.
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post #39 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-26-2007, 02:05 PM
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QBN, great insight on the topic and your inquiry is has more intellect than my answers, if you know what I mean. It means a lot for this to be on your mind.

Ok, Henry's story is exactly what I mean. There are programs out there that cater to the development of ones self. I once again stress the fact that if one believes her or she can do something than they will try, the same affects will take place for self doubt.

As a kid, I used to ask my self why are some people comfortable with being uncomfortable.

In all actuality this subject boils down to certain stigmas that affects everybody on a daily bases. How does one view them selves to be is how one will conduct them selves. I guess it is clear now that a "Stigma of Self Doubt" can cross all color lines. If you believe your sick then you shall be sick, if you tell yourself your not sick then you will rarely ever get sick.

Its truly a believe system. Other topics related to this very subject matter include Vertical Thinking and Lateral Thinking. If you know the two you will understand that one is about following a set patter, or belief system. The other is training of the mind on how to break this very pattern or belief system and still generate the same out come or a greater out come.

Solution. Education and the betterment of ones self.

A New Day. I would not discount the 40 year old mother with five kids but truth be told it is harder to retrain a person who's created a life style based on a believe system instilled over generations. My grandmother used to tell me don't go to Queens because the white people would chase me out, but I still went. Fare is the number one enemy of opportunity.

We have to stop faring the unknown and embrace deference. I use the term training of ones self because thats where it starts. For instance, instead of advertisement of Target of public transportation in these low income areas we should see simple signs that say "You Can Make It". Instead of looking at cold gray walls in the welfare line, one should see signs that say, "This Is The Beginning, Now Its Your Turn".

Other little thinks around town that would induce thought of ones self and break the pattern of Liqueur stores with half naked ladies smoking a camel, or drinking death bear. Any body bringing products and advertising in low income places should ban together to start a massive self promotion campaign.

You would be very surprised at how the words "You Can Do It" can change some ones life.






3. Paul Hamm, Gymnast: I owe a lot to my parents, especially my mother and father.
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post #40 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-26-2007, 02:11 PM
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I think that you have to look further afield than the USA for the answer to this question, as in every developed country that black Africans have moved into they have become the new underclass.

You had Emancipation in the US in 1862. That's a very long time to make such little progress.

In the UK we had mass immigration from Jamaica in the 1960s. In every test of education, employment, welfare benefits, etc., the second & third generation of the UK black population tops the lists for poor achievement. This is not so for the new Asian immigrant communities here.

If it is not (dare I say it) a 'genetic problem' - what is it?

heh, heh....the problem is in your racist, bigoted mind not with the Black population! heh, heh......you have been reading "Nick Griffin's Dreamworld" comics again! heh, heh........
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