$250B for Iraq War says GOP, $35B for children's healthcare, GOP says "no way" - Page 5 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #41 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-26-2007, 10:23 PM
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Political rhetoric . . . and the GOP is no better. Wasn't it them who proposed a balanced budget amendment? Think the Dems will propose one now?
Yes, the Dems have proposed two Balanced budget amendments. It is always done when they are in opposition. Clever that. Note that the fully MAJORITY Republican Congress did NOT propose a Balanced Budget Amendment when Reagan was President and the Senate was Republican nor the six years that Bush and Republican Congress were in charge.

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post #42 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-26-2007, 10:34 PM
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There is no solution on the table yet, only a proposal intended to get political mileage by pouring more money into a bad system. That won't fix it.
You want to provide health care? Go hire some doctors and equipment, set them up, and offer free health care to the masses. Only thing is, they have to sign a waiver promising no lawsuits so those doctors don't have to pay malpractice insurance or hire their own lawyers and clerks to fill out the endless paperwork to justify why they gave you a free sample of Nyquil. That would be way cheaper than any model I've seen, and I bet the doctors and patients would love it.
I think the solution is going to be a hodgepodge of several of the active plans. One element HAS to be TORT REFORM to limit liability. Another element is a negotiation with Pharma so that US Insurance payouts for drugs are not the only thing footing the bill for R&D. It makes the cost of meds to US patients go very high while other countries get the same meds at 20% of the cost [or less]. A third element has to be preventive medicine that stops some of the causes of our big health costs.

There are at least twenty major elements to any solution that will be workable. And if done correctly, everyone, no matter if you have a health policy through IBM or State or BlueCross your rates should be cheaper. That is because any revamp has to address the reasons for high costs as well as the services themselves. So, not only will the 40YO mother of 5 get health insurance but so will the family of 4 at a reasonable rate as will the IBM employee. If done correctly there should be less federal and state money than is paid out now. THAT IS WHERE EVERYONE HAS TO HOLD CONGRESS'S FEET TO THE FIRE. If it is not a comprehensive revamp, it will cost much more and will likely fail.

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post #43 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-27-2007, 02:37 AM
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You are in Georgia, one of the least expensive states. That makes some difference. Also, few with $50K and rent can itemize. I ran $1726 for that family of 4 on the IRS tax calculator.

50000 Base
3100 FICA
1726 FED
815 State [50% of fed]
1450 medi
9230 Health Ins [national average for family of four - AMA]
12000 Rent
3000 Utilities [gas, electric, phone]
4000 Car payment [200 monthly per car, assuming two drivers]
1500 Car insurance [two cars]
750 renters insurance
2600 gasoline [assuming $50 tank per week]
40171 Base FIXED expenses
9829 left after FIXED expenses

This leaves $819 per month with both parent working to buy food, clothing, books, savings for college, savings for retirement, incidentals, dental, optical, braces, furniture, bedding, tires, oil changes, hair cuts, school supplies, and the occasional vacation or weekend getaway.

This exercise did not take into account Local income tax, sales tax, usage tax/property tax on cars, various school taxes, and other fees that we all get in the mail as the year goes by.

Now at some point, because things are pretty tight for our family of four making $50,000 a year some asswipe is going to bitch that they didn't plan enough for retirement or their kids college and someone is going to have to bail "them" out.

EDIT to correct gasoline number
ns

Thank you, well put.
I am going to move in 5 years when I retire and thinking about Alanta or the gulf coast. Is the the cost of Hins tht much lower down there? The housing costs are are good and the people are great. Heck might even have enough leftover to run a 6pac boat.
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post #44 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-27-2007, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
Yes, the Dems have proposed two Balanced budget amendments. It is always done when they are in opposition. Clever that. Note that the fully MAJORITY Republican Congress did NOT propose a Balanced Budget Amendment when Reagan was President and the Senate was Republican nor the six years that Bush and Republican Congress were in charge.
Yes, I agree, an opportunity squandered. And I think the GOP presented it when in the minority as well. That tells me nobody wants it.

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post #45 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-27-2007, 06:11 AM
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There is a lot of political rhetoric in nearly all of what goes on in Washington DC. In this case, political points are being made with rhetoric, perhaps, but the issue is pretty simple and serious without the political rhetoric. The war should be paid for by demanding a sacrifice from all Americans, not just the ones we send over there to die or be maimed on this ill conceived and undefined mission, or Americans who have yet to be born. The logic of the GOP and President on this issue cannot be rationalized. Providing care for Americans born into situations where the means, for whatever reasons because the kids are not at fault, are not being made available to provide needed and timely health care, is a concept that going into debt to correct even if it means putting the burden on these future generations of taxpayers, can be rationalized.

There will come a time when this period of our history will be reviewed and the lost potential of this nation, a potential represented by the hundreds of billions, even trillions of tax dollars and the lives and well being of tens of thousands of soldiers, millions of Iraqis, and the international support and good will toward America that arose after 9-11 that has been and continues to be squandered on an undeclared "war on terror" with it's centerpiece, the preemptive invasion and subsequently bungled occupation of Iraq based on lies about WMD and Al-Qaeda, will be explored with endless "what if" questions. What if those resources had been spent on strengthening America by freeing us from Middle East oil, improving the level of education for all Americans, unburdening our manufacturing and other industries to make them more competitive in world markets by providing a national health care system, and carrying out a long term strategy to ensure America is what we all envision America should be in the next century? Just think of all the potential this political rhetoric from the White House has snuffed out. It will be on the minds of American people for a long time to come. Jim
Well, I agree with the gist of this. I remain opposed to the government getting deeper involved in providing health care. Without judgment on the motivations for being in Iraq, the mismanagement at the top of that war has at least tripled what it should have cost us, both in lives and $$, and the bleeding continues. Even taking the 1/3 out would leave us $1.6 T to apply to the deficit. Sounds repetitive, but an opportunity truly squandered.

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post #46 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-27-2007, 06:13 AM
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The money bucket HAS to have a bottom. That has been the problem in the past seven years. The next eight years we get to pay for whatever comes up PLUS $5Trillion of Bush's excess TAX.

And with that picture of Fred in your avatar, every time I read one of your posts, I do so in Fred cadence.
Don't get me wrong here, the money bucket should have a bottom, but nobody has ever observed one. And if my boy Fred doesn't wake up soon, I'll be Googling for a Ron Paul avatar. You won't hear him advocating national health care in any form.

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post #47 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-27-2007, 11:31 AM
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Yes, I agree, an opportunity squandered. And I think the GOP presented it when in the minority as well. That tells me nobody wants it.
That's pretty much my point. Each side proposes it when the other side can block it. Makes great sound bites though.

Somehow the people need to force the issue.

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post #48 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-27-2007, 11:45 AM
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ns

Thank you, well put.
I am going to move in 5 years when I retire and thinking about Alanta or the gulf coast. Is the the cost of Hins tht much lower down there? The housing costs are are good and the people are great. Heck might even have enough leftover to run a 6pac boat.
I am always surprised at how folks in California, NY and some of the larger states manage on $50-60K and raise a family AND prepare for retirement and college for the kids.

Two examples. Using Kentucky as my baseline and my cousin in Santa Maria, CA, both mid 50s married guys.

I have multiple car discount [haha] but even with just two or three cars the 500E only costs me $650 annually for full coverage, 300 deductibles. I can save more if I move the deductibles out to $1000 but the savings are not that much. My cousin pays nearly $1800 for his 500E and he is also mid 50s, clean record, etc

My 3000sqft house in an established neighborhood, which would cost $650-800K in Santa Maria, California [using my cousin's near equal house in a similar neighborhood] is valued at $160K. My annual property tax is under $1000 as is my homeowners insurance. Now back 18 years ago when we bought the house we made a decision to buy a house based on ONE income, not the "our calculations say you can afford to buy $XXX,XXX house". It meant that if one of us wanted or needed to quit work we could still live within budget. It also meant that a 20 year mortgage was paid off in 8 years. It also allowed me to semi retire at 55. Now I pick what contracts I want to do and limit my travel and time away and I focus on my avocation.

Utilities, taxes and nearly every other fixed income is less in the Midwest and South. Rates for car repairs are in the $70-90 range instead of $120-175.

So when folks say that living on $50K is a piece of cake, ask where they live. Some people have a pretty narrow perspective of what it actually costs to live in this country.

McBear,
Kentucky

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Last edited by mcbear; 10-27-2007 at 11:48 AM.
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