$250B for Iraq War says GOP, $35B for children's healthcare, GOP says "no way" - Page 3 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #21 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
If the family of four does not have an employer that provides healthcare then they would have about a $12,000 annual insurance bill, on top of mortgage, tax, savings for school for the two kids, retirement and other normal living expenses. And that is IF they can get on a plan. Do the math.

Are you really trying to make the argument that a family of 4 can not live off $50,000 a year???
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post #22 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 04:22 PM
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First, Look up strawman argument.

We are the only industrialized nation without a healthcare plan for our citizens.
Why do those in these countries you speak on travel here for health care if they have the means? You're a fool if you think health care will get better under government control.

It’s really funny how the lefties bitch about government "big brother" tinfoil hat issues, but want it to provide everything for them.
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post #23 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 05:09 PM
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[quote=arcaidy76;2596641]
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
First, Look up strawman argument.

We are the only industrialized nation without a healthcare plan for our citizens.

QUOTE]

Why do those in these countries you speak on travel here for health care if they have the means? You're a fool if you think health care will get better under government control.

It’s really funny how the lefties bitch about government "big brother" tinfoil hat issues, but want it to provide everything for them.
The few Europeans that come here, or Asians, or Canadians for elective health care treatments other than unique, developing treatment or specialists talented in plastic surgery, are pretty limited. The ones who do come here are typically from places like the Middle East or other developing nations with a disgustingly rich upper class where it costs less to come here than to build up the necessary infrastructure in their countries to support a similar level of competence and capability. That argument is a poor argument. The equivalent family earning $60k in Germany is not sending anyone over here for medical care. Same with France and same with the UK. Or Japan.

The legislation at hand is intended to ensure care is provided to those who need it but for very easily understood reasons, cannot afford it, even if they have a family income of up to $60k per year. You can make strawman arguments until you turn blue showing how if they put health care first they could afford it. But, the fact remains, the people performing jobs that give a family an income of $60k per year are in a global competition with people who do not have to fund their health care. And, as a result, whether it is the family or the employer, we are putting our industrial jobs at risk by continuing to ignore this advantage our offshore competition enjoys. If this were corrected in the form of tax breaks to companies or individuals I would expect the EU and others to protest a new protectionism. Instead the answer is to level the playing field and take the burden at a different level. Like the competition does.

Another aspect of your typical argument that strikes me as out of touch is that the fine healthcare available in the US for unlimited funds is not what is being provided. It is healthcare at all vs. none. And for those who want to drink and smoke, let them pay a special tax to fund the health care bills that are sure to follow. I see nothing wrong with that, especially if we are all funding each other's health care.

America needs to decide what it wants America to be in the next century, and then figure out how to make that vision reality. At the moment we are going down the tube of greed and instant gratification that results from this short term focus on grabbing as much as you can without getting caught. It has led to a perception of uncontrolled greed and selfishness being "a good thing" and the rapid degradation of our society. Kids in the "have not" neighborhoods stabbing each other over sneakers and gold chains. Kids in the "have" neighborhoods coming to schools armed to the teeth and going on shooting sprees.

To QBN's theme of principles, and the present lack thereof, the situation is real and encouraged because we are manipulated by untruthful statements and innuendo to the point where the value of honesty is lost. The general perception is that principles are nice to talk about, but no one is dumb enough to give any material possession or potential material possession up for a principle. Which leads to no principles. And no national vision, no plans, just a free fall. Jim
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post #24 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by arcaidy76 View Post
Are you really trying to make the argument that a family of 4 can not live off $50,000 a year???
First off thats $50,000 gross. Take off 8% for SS, 10% for feds, 0-9% for state (lets call it 4). So thats 22%. Now where down to $39,000. My area is right at the national average for for rent and two bedroom apartments average$1,000. Now we are down to $27,000 add utilities, $25k,auto expenses 6k, now were at 19K. Health Ins. if there are no preexisting conditions is 12K. Now were at 7k. That leads to $600 dollars a month for food, clothing, education,furnishing and of course Ins. co pays. So now your driving a S...box, got both kids in one bedroom (we all know how well that works) and people wonder why you can't make ends meet. Thank God I do not have those problems but after you have done it and know people who are currently doing it. It id not far fetched to earn 50k and need help.
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post #25 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 07:11 PM
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First off thats $50,000 gross. Take off 8% for SS, 10% for feds, 0-9% for state (lets call it 4). So thats 22%. Now where down to $39,000. My area is right at the national average for for rent and two bedroom apartments average$1,000. Now we are down to $27,000 add utilities, $25k,auto expenses 6k, now were at 19K. Health Ins. if there are no preexisting conditions is 12K. Now were at 7k. That leads to $600 dollars a month for food, clothing, education,furnishing and of course Ins. co pays. So now your driving a S...box, got both kids in one bedroom (we all know how well that works) and people wonder why you can't make ends meet. Thank God I do not have those problems but after you have done it and know people who are currently doing it. It id not far fetched to earn 50k and need help.
You're a little off on your assumptions...

If you use the calculator here:
2007 Withholding Calculator

The federal tax is $1100. It would be less if they itemized.
SS is 6.2% so another $3100
Add state which would be maybe half of federal. $550
Then add Medicare @ $1450 and you're up to $6200 in total taxes.

That leaves us with $43,000.
Rent at $12,000.
Utilities can take another $2400.

Why would someone buy an automobile that costs half their income????
But we'll leave it at $6,000...

The most expensive insurance quoted for a family of 4 on Health Insurance, Medical Insurance, Individual Health Insurance Quotes was $724 with the average under $500.
So $6000 for insurance.

That leaves nearly $1400 a month to live on.

I still don't see how someone can make the argument a family needs government assistance making $50,000 a year....

Last edited by arcaidy76; 10-25-2007 at 07:16 PM. Reason: fix links...
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post #26 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 07:32 PM
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I certainly agree with that. The Republicans for the most part are even worse, utterly irredeemably corrupt,bunch of hypocritical $hitheads (Larry Craig most obvious & best example of that) and totally owned by lobbyists and most of them by ultra right wing interests

That is why individuals like Ron Paul never looked better. (which is not meant as an insult to Ron Paul)
And, those who like Ron Paul do so because of his adherence to the constitutional principles this country was founded on. Those on the left agree with his positions on foreign policy and the separation of powers of the legislative and executive branches. They ain't gonna like it much, though, when he points out that the welfare state, all of those federal government programs which "help the children" are not authorized by that same constitution and is correct when he does it.
Every increase in the power and reach of that federal government, whether it be "for the children" or a spy program on emails, everything we let or make that federal government provide for us, is ultimately a concession of our liberty. We've been seduced into thinking that government can and should provide for our less fortunate, and the reach continues to incrementally grow each and every year no matter who is in control, with a logical end of providing everything for everyone. An exaggeration? Today it is, perhaps . . .
The government isn't good at providing anything, success is by brute force with a bottomless bucket of money. Waste and fraud and corruption, billions and billions of dollars. Think that private charities couldn't pick up the load? Take the $35B back from the feds, put the waste/fraud/corruption alotment back into your pocket, peel off the part that would be profit to an insurance company (in addition to spreading risk, they do make a profit you know), and give the rest to your local free clinic, who happens to provide health care with likely very limited resources. The model is idealistic, but anybody that believes that health care is broken in this country because the federal government is putting enough money in it is nuts.
And, the war and this health care bill are different issues. Tying the two together is, indeed, political rhetoric.

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post #27 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 07:35 PM
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can't compare atl to ca
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post #28 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 07:48 PM
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.....
And, the war and this health care bill are different issues. Tying the two together is, indeed, political rhetoric.
Not really. When the cost of the war is paid for by a specific tax surplus and not from the diminished-by-tax-cuts-for-the-wealthy (including war profiteers) funds collected to support the needs of the country, then the tie between the two issues will become more tenuous. Jim
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post #29 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 08:05 PM
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can't compare atl to ca


True, ca has more than an 80 day supply of useable water left for it's residents
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post #30 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 09:25 PM
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Not really. When the cost of the war is paid for by a specific tax surplus and not from the diminished-by-tax-cuts-for-the-wealthy (including war profiteers) funds collected to support the needs of the country, then the tie between the two issues will become more tenuous. Jim
Ahh, but you forget, the money bucket has no bottom . . . neither side sees revenues as a restriction for spending . . .

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