$250B for Iraq War says GOP, $35B for children's healthcare, GOP says "no way" - Page 2 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #11 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 03:07 PM Thread Starter
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Well, I think they are doing a great job. This bill really points up the insanity of this country. The GOP has blocked national health insurance for decades while the rest of the world has gone too and and never turned back. The public wants it, all the polls are two to one in favor of it. For example:

ABCNEWS.com : U.S. Health Care Concerns Increase

Meanwhile, the President screams for more murder money. The fact the Democrats are have brought this to the public's attention may help end the war. You should want that.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #12 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 03:08 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR View Post
Take a Xanax, brother!

Vast majorities of us on both sides want to see the war end. I've said before, just bring them back tonight. Fuck it all - leave everything there. Sustaining the empire costs too much money.

Establishing free healthcare for families well into the middle class doesn't make any more sense than perpetuating this war. The difference between those two cases is that with S-CHIP, there's nothing to "un-do". Congress can take another stab at renewing the program (without expanding it unduly), and it'll breeze right through.

If your lot (e.g. the Democrats running the show now) would stop playing a political tit-for-tat game of catch-up for the past 6 years and focus on doing their fucking jobs, this wouldn't be an issue.
How are the Democrats "running the show"? The Executive Branch does that, Congress legislates through a slow and arcane process. But don't worry, that's going to change in a few months.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #13 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 03:09 PM
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^ Ridiculous. The democrats were given the keys to the kingdom, and are more concerned with the color of the drapes than they are getting down to brass tacks. They are complete and utter failures, under the 'leadership' of that stupid menopausal bitch Nancy Pelosi. They should be handing out forehead tattoos at the '08 DNC convention which read "BE CAREFUL FOR WHAT YOU WISH".
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post #14 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 03:12 PM
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Yup, they should have cut Bush off at the knees during the first funding issue. Another opportunity is looming.......

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #15 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by arcaidy76 View Post
This bill would have made it possible for a family of four making $62,000 a year to get federal government subsidized healthcare. Do you really think that’s necessary?

This bill was just the first step in creating a government healthcare system. Nothing more….
If the family of four does not have an employer that provides healthcare then they would have about a $12,000 annual insurance bill, on top of mortgage, tax, savings for school for the two kids, retirement and other normal living expenses. And that is IF they can get on a plan. Do the math.

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post #16 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QBNCGAR View Post
The democrats were given the keys to the kingdom, and are more concerned with the color of the drapes than they are getting down to brass tacks. They are complete and utter failures, under the 'leadership' of that stupid menopausal bitch Nancy Pelosi. They should be handing out forehead tattoos at the '08 DNC convention which read "BE CAREFUL FOR WHAT YOU WISH".

I certainly agree with that. The Republicans for the most part are even worse, utterly irredeemably corrupt,bunch of hypocritical $hitheads (Larry Craig most obvious & best example of that) and totally owned by lobbyists and most of them by ultra right wing interests

That is why individuals like Ron Paul never looked better. (which is not meant as an insult to Ron Paul)

Jim
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post #17 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 03:32 PM
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If we get a repeat of what happened in Louisiana recently with their newly elected Republican, this notion that people brave enough to challenge the status quo for what it is - corrupt - deserve our support, may just gain some legs.
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post #18 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 03:38 PM
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If the family of four does not have an employer that provides healthcare then they would have about a $12,000 annual insurance bill, on top of mortgage, tax, savings for school for the two kids, retirement and other normal living expenses. And that is IF they can get on a plan. Do the math.
Straw man alert.

I have a family of three, and if we had to pay the combined medical bills for all of us (dental, vision, health) out of pocket with no coverage, using retail rates, over the past 10 years, we'd have saved about $15,000 by doing so. That's because we lead healthy lives.

Opening up this floodgate means we all have to pay for fat kids of derelict parents to suffer through diabetes, high blood pressure, etc., etc., etc.

You don't have to make anywhere near $30,000 a year to get health benefits. If having healthcare is important enough to you, you'll take a lower paying job someplace where you get to enjoy that benefit.

One's health, and the costs associated with maintaining it, is effectively a risk to be managed. I don't want the government to get the idea for one minute that they're better at managing risk for me than I am, nor that I should pay for them to manage risk for other people.
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post #19 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by arcaidy76 View Post
It's barely "most" if your read the polls. It's nearly 50% either way. If the public knew the true issues behind a government healthcare system they'd drop it in a heartbeat. The main stream media won't allow those to be known...

I can garuntee that most would not support this bill if they knew someone making $60,000 would get free or subsidized health care from the government. This bill was sold by saying it would help the "poor". $60,000 a year isn't poor.

That vast majority support healthcare reform.

There is near-universal support (94% in favor) for giving tax breaks to small businesses to allow them to provide health insurance for their employees.
Nearly as many (86%) favor allowing American workers to keep the same medical insurance when they change jobs.
About four in five Americans (81%) favor requiring large companies either to offer health insurance coverage to their employees or to pay into a pool that would be used to pay for health insurance.
Along the same lines, 77% favor reducing government regulation to allow more health insurance providers to compete in the system.
Seventy-six percent favor providing government subsidies to help lower-income Americans buy health insurance.
Nearly 7 in 10 (69%) favor introducing reforms to the legal system that would place limits on the amount of money awarded in malpractice suits against doctors.
Sixty-eight percent favor providing American families with a $15,000 tax credit to allow them to buy private health insurance.
The same percentage (68%) favors having the federal government help fund state programs that attempt to address the health insurance situations of each state.
While it would be nice to know the source of your polling data [we tend to do that here] your numbers show that, indeed a large majority of Americans want Healthcare guaranteed and they want it NOW. I am not sure they care how it is done. It is going to cost the average American about the same either way.

Whether we:
1)give tax breaks to Cooperations and Small Biz for them to provide coverage and then pass the tax burden to the individual payer [or using Bush Economics, just run up a $5Trillion Debt for the next generation to pay] or we

2)give the individual tax breaks to buy their own healthcare and pass the revenue spread to Corporations who will then pass them to the consumer or

3)the Government deals with the system through changes in insurance/prescriptions/etc,

there is going to be $X cost to provide health coverage for 300Million Americans [and 20Million Mexicans] and that cost is going to be shared by the 120 Million working Americans. That is a simple fact.

So, we have seen how the system has worked in the past. There are over 70Million folks who don't have insurance. We are 49th in Infant Mortality Rate. The WHO projects that for the first time in HISTORY US citizens will likely not live as long as their parents. We have epidemics of diabetes, staph nfections that run rampant.

We have to make a change. The Republicans had SIX years of complete control of all three branches of Government and did not do squat. They squandered their chance. They FAILED. It's time to fix it.

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post #20 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-25-2007, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR View Post
Straw man alert.

I have a family of three, and if we had to pay the combined medical bills for all of us (dental, vision, health) out of pocket with no coverage, using retail rates, over the past 10 years, we'd have saved about $15,000 by doing so. That's because we lead healthy lives.

Opening up this floodgate means we all have to pay for fat kids of derelict parents to suffer through diabetes, high blood pressure, etc., etc., etc.

You don't have to make anywhere near $30,000 a year to get health benefits. If having healthcare is important enough to you, you'll take a lower paying job someplace where you get to enjoy that benefit.

One's health, and the costs associated with maintaining it, is effectively a risk to be managed. I don't want the government to get the idea for one minute that they're better at managing risk for me than I am, nor that I should pay for them to manage risk for other people.
First, Look up strawman argument.

Now, you are lucky that you have benefits, many don't. Many families, depending on states do have to pay upwards of $1200 monthly for a family of four [and that is NOT including dental or vision]. You live in a low cost of living state. That helps.

You mention those mean ol families who don't take care of their kids and have diabetes, high blood pressure, etc but failed to mention those with breast cancer, brain tumors, inherited conditions, allergies, asthma, and those many surprises that even "healthy" families have.

Sure we have a subset of folks that have unhealthy habits but much of the large cost of healthcare is not those folks problems, it is the folks without insurance who have to use the ER as their primary care physician since that hospital HAS to take them and it is the litigious nature of our society that requires a doctor to to 20 tests to CYA in hopes he won't be sued because he missed something when little Billy accidentally exploded the water heater and knocked himself out cold.

We are the only industrialized nation without a healthcare plan for our citizens. We are also one of the least healthy. Do you ever wonder if there is a correlation in that? Why do more of our young children die than in nearly 1/4 of the other countries in the world when we are the richest country on the planet? Why do people die in their homes, without healthcare because they can't afford to go to a doctor? How does a country that is this rich and bountiful let that happen?

Are we that calloused and stupid?

McBear,
Kentucky

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