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post #41 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-21-2008, 11:55 AM
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Growth of the debt is measured in dollars -- the end. GDP, inflation, and other obfuscations are presented for the sole purpose of excusing and rationalizing bad behavior by elected officials who manage money as if it isn't their own.

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post #42 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-21-2008, 06:54 PM
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I was going to point out Debt to the penny but Mars beat me to it. For reference:

September 30, 1981 $997,855,000,000
January 20, 1993 $4,188,092,107,183 319.71%
January 19, 2001 $5,727,776,738,304 36.76%
December 17, 2008 $10,630,556,502,899 85.60%
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Originally Posted by bottomline1 View Post
Interesting, but non-sensical, because you haven't adjusted for inflation.

I did a rough calculation over 324 months with inflation at 3% showing the actual increase in 1981 dollars to be a little over $5 trillion in that entire time. Your result was over $9 trillion growth.

You have to be asked what you gain by exaggerating the amount?
Sorry Skippy but you failed to get the point, AGAIN. The post referred to the aggregate increase. These were ACTUAL NUMBERS added to the FEDERAL debt, not mental exercises at an assumed inflation rate.

I know I keep repeating this but READ the whole thread to understand the conversation and then do your homework.

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post #43 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-21-2008, 06:57 PM
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While it's useful to compare debt to GDP, that wasn't the discussion topic. So, you haven't disputed anything I wrote. Do you have another number for the actual growth in the debt?

BTW, I wrote that the data was nonsense and exaggerated.
How could the data be exaggerated, it is specific numbers from specific times direct from the US Treasury.

Do you even know what the discussion topic was?

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post #44 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-21-2008, 06:58 PM
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Growth of the debt is measured in dollars -- the end. GDP, inflation, and other obfuscations are presented for the sole purpose of excusing and rationalizing bad behavior by elected officials who manage money as if it isn't their own.
Well, comparing it to GDP does give a frame of reference of just how deep the shit is.

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post #45 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-21-2008, 08:48 PM
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How could the data be exaggerated, it is specific numbers from specific times direct from the US Treasury.

Do you even know what the discussion topic was?
So you are asserting that the dollars added to the debt in 1981 have the same value as the dollars added in 2007. We always consider inflation when evaluating the budget from year to year, but you don't want to do that when taking that number at the bottom representing the deficit and adding it to the debt number.

Going forward, I suppose that you plan to pay off your mortgage with the value of the dollars you originally received on the loan. Nope, ain't going to happen. You'll use cheaper dollars, but make up for it in the interest you pay. Same with the debt.

I wrote that the national debt increased by something over $5 trillion dollars in that time period of 28 years in inflation adjusted 1981 dollars. You don't agree?

Same for you GS. You don't change the time value of money with rhetoric.

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post #46 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-21-2008, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bottomline1 View Post
So you are asserting that the dollars added to the debt in 1981 have the same value as the dollars added in 2007. We always consider inflation when evaluating the budget from year to year, but you don't want to do that when taking that number at the bottom representing the deficit and adding it to the debt number.

Going forward, I suppose that you plan to pay off your mortgage with the value of the dollars you originally received on the loan. Nope, ain't going to happen. You'll use cheaper dollars, but make up for it in the interest you pay. Same with the debt.

I wrote that the national debt incrfeased by something over $5 trillion dollars in that time period of 28 years in inflation adjusted 1981 dollars. You don't agree?

Same for you GS. You don't change the time value of money with rhetoric.
Second, since this is accumulated debt, and still to be paid, the dollar amount is what it is, irrelevant to it's "adjusted" value. Whether the new dollars are cheaper or not is totally irrelevant when calculating accumulating cash.

In other words, WE STILL HAVE $TEN.SIX TRILLION IN DEBT of which $9.7Trillion was generated through just three Trickle Down Presidents [the genesis of the discussion]. The other 40 Presidents are responsible for the other $.9T.

Now if you want to argue that Bush's monetary values are actually less because of inflation than Reagan's that is valid. But since Reagan did not pay his off, nor did Bush1, and it accumulated, it is now the same value as Bush's [thanks to revolving T-Note distributions]. Only Clinton actually paid off some of the debt notes to reduce the debt [in 1999 and 2000 dollars].

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post #47 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-21-2008, 09:24 PM
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Well, comparing it to GDP does give a frame of reference of just how deep the shit is.
The point is that there shouldn't be any shit to compare it to. I find deficit spending completely unacceptable in any but the most dire of circumstances. Spending money you don't have is patently irresponsible.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #48 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-21-2008, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
I was going to point out Debt to the penny but Mars beat me to it. For reference:

September 30, 1981 $997,855,000,000
January 20, 1993 $4,188,092,107,183 319.71%
January 19, 2001 $5,727,776,738,304 36.76%
December 17, 2008 $10,630,556,502,899 85.60%
Again, look at your own chart. I have no objection to your presenting the debt amounts for the four years. But what is clearly non-sensical is your putting growth percentages without consideration for inflation; your math is correct, but your purpose is rhetorical (and to be frank, partisan).

Your point would have been much more credible if you had left off the percentages and reiterated your oft-made argument about the amount of interest paid that distorts each years fiscal budget. Rather than the debt amount increasing, it's actually the increse in interest paid year over year that is killing us. That would be an interesting chart.

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post #49 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-21-2008, 09:35 PM
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The point is that there shouldn't be any shit to compare it to. I find deficit spending completely unacceptable in any but the most dire of circumstances. Spending money you don't have is patently irresponsible.
You are a very unusual person if you lived this long without borrowing to buy a house or a car or some other expensive item. Even putting your gas on a credit card qualifies as deficit spending. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I expect that you have participated in deficit spending, whether you liked it or not.

Based on your rhetoric, you would have stopped fighting WWII when the gov't checkbook dried up instead of urging folks to "buy war bonds". You can call Ron Paul first before posting your answer.

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post #50 of 54 (permalink) Old 12-21-2008, 09:41 PM
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WWII was an extraordinary and dire circumstance, the likes of which we have not since experienced. And in regard to your personal assertions, I took a mortgage on the first house I bought. That is the only time I have ever borrowed money. What can I say, we were all young and foolish once.

But borrowing money in and of itself, isn't irresponsible if the amount is reasonable and every effort is made to repay it in short order. That hardly describes the apparently endless fiscal irresponsibility demonstrated on capital hill.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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