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post #61 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-20-2007, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
We do have the same kinds of arms that were available then. Simple handguns and one click at a time rifles and shotguns. They look much different, they load different but they are still the same "side arms". And their function in society has really not changed. Back in the 1770s there were trading days and the most traded item was guns. Guys had several if they could afford them [no 12 car garages at that time].

Most of my friends are on the Left on most issues and seem somewhat flummoxed that I don't follow lockstep. I fully understand the positions. I also know that there is a tremendous amount of disinformation that is stirred about, both by the NRA [which I think is very overreaching] and the Brady gang [which I think reaches just as far the other way].

If, as example you took ALL the weapons that the Brady folks think are REALLY BAD and the NRA thinks you ABSOLUTELY NEED to go hunting [the AK-47 clones, AR-15/M-16, UZI/Mac9 and clones] and melted them today, you MIGHT lose 1-2% of all firearms. Maybe. Now you are down to Rifles [hunting, target, other] Shotguns [Hunting, Street Sweepers, other] and handguns [pistols and revolvers].

Of all the remaining guns, there is Federal paperwork on over 80% of those guns as they were bought at normal gunshops. This is, in essence the registered gun control laws that are wanted by many. The other 20% are sold either private or at gunshows [dealers at gunshows STILL have to do the forms and waiting periods etc]. There are already possession and carry laws that cover every state, Federal Laws that address modifying weapons, automatic weapons and stolen weapons. We even have laws about using firearms in a crime!

So, what else is necessary? What measures should be taken so that the .1% of gun owners are addressed without further overregulating the already law abiding 99.9%? And would further laws actually increase compliance on that .1%?
No question, most gun owners are responsible, good citizens who want to feel safe. Even mc bear, Bruce, Fast 55, FTL and every other gun owner you can think of. I really don't have too much issue with that.

But the NRA and the gun manufacturers are utterly unreasonable in their agenda.

Who needs a nation were everyone is armed to the teeth, hyperparanoid, and instantly ready to turn every intersection into the fucking OK corral?

There has to be some dark psychological undercurrent with those wanting guns because of "how they make you feel" (which is the ORIGINAL TOPIC here anyway)

It is true that thugs and street criminals have plenty of guns.

But what about the drunk guy in the family who gets mad and shoots someone when he gets mad in an argument?

What about the 5 year old who is "playing" with an "unloaded" gun that really isn't?

And the god damned TV shows and medias that show thousands of people getting shot every day, but nothing about ambulances, grieving relatives, funerals, and insurance costs, paperwork, and every other collateral consequence of one bullet being fired in anger or thoughlessly?

HOW MANY AMERICANS DIE FROM GUNSHOTS EVERY YEAR? someone be my research biatch and tell me, I bet it is a HELL of a lot. Not to count the wounded.

Probably a LOT more than have died in the Iraq war so far.

And like was said, if our government is so wonderful, and the most free in the world, how come the need to pack heat wherever you go and be ready to shoot bullets into the leaders if we think they are going to be repressive?

Charles Whitman, David Koresh, Timothy McVeigh, all the rest of them. Just "exercising their 2nd amendment rights". Gawd.

Jim
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post #62 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-21-2007, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by NZ Benz
I'm guessing you think that owning semi-military, military style or handgun weapons is the norm I don't. Furthermore with regards to fear that’s not to say that you cringe whenever you walk down the street that something may jump out of an alley at you it's the fact that you consider it reasonable to arm at all, that you consider that there is a real likelihood to justify the possession of a weapon for protection.

As I posted above, taking the AK47/AR15 type weapons really is a MINORITY quantity weapon. The media and Hollywood might like everyone to think that they are everywhere but that is not true. In fact the major companies that produce them have tended to go out of business quickly. Also, an AR-15 [the one that looks like an M-16, from Colt is about $1500, not a quick impulse purchase. MOST of the firearms in this country are more like a S&W 38 or Colt 45. Recently Glock has made a plastic handled weapon which does not rust and is easier to maintain. These are the main weapons, not the assault rifles and shiny Desert Eagle 44AutoMag [which will stress your arm apart shooting an entire clip]

There is an urban arms race in the US I don't have a gun because we're in a situation in this country where a person being shot with a slug gun was a major news item in terms of violent crime, I feel no need at all to own on because it simply would not be reasonable force to use one on the criminals we have here, you own one and why? Because criminals in the US carry guns, not all the time to be sure but much more than here.

There really is NOT an urban arms race in the US. As I pointed out earlier, there are gangs that seem to get weapons and arm themselves but that is fairly limited to zones of a city. As an example, I lived in NYC and walked/drove throughout Midtown [from 92st down to 34th] at all hours and never once did I see, hear or hear of gun violence [except the shooting at 50Cent's studio down the street]

I live in a town of 250,000 + and it is big news if someone gets shot here and I would bet 90% of the population has at least one gun. Gun violence just doesn't erupt out of nowhere. The new trend of home invasions to rob for drug money is the new wrinkle. There have been two killings. In one the invaders killed a 60YO man and his wife, stole everything. In the other, the invaders found out the home owner owned a gun. After they got out of the hospital they went to jail.


I think there is a clear divorce in the US between what in my view is good community governance and what you have. Surely your family is part of that society and the police have a duty to protect your safety? And if crime is an economic issue as you said then surely the social benefits of the state taking a more active role in poverty and social welfare would justify the expense? But you’d rather fortify yourselves in your own homes? Sorry but that’s dicked up.

Society has a very large role to play, and really needs to step up to a larger role. That is going to require large amounts of money and Politicians are not willing to commit a Trillion Dollars to try and solve a problem where they don't see a quick Return on Investment. But to say that trying to solve it through government action OR fortify in homes is a simplistic either/or argument that is not true. If you look at a map of the US you can circle the core Urban problem areas in 20 circles. That will encompass about 60Million Urban dwellers in HIGH RISK areas where gun violence and gang violence and poverty and drugs have all converged. That still leaves about 95% of the land area and 80% of the population of the country that are NOT involved in that situation.

If you asked anyone if they thought they were fortified up in their homes, you would be laughed out of the neighborhood. Hell, in many places people still don't lock their doors at night.


Sorry a further edit, and in my limited understanding of your constitution doesn't the 2nd amendment state something about a well regulated militia being needed for times of unrest? How are you yourself and all the other un-licenced/un-registered gun owners with some nuts thrown in well regulated? I don't think it is or ever was supposed to be a mandate for individual vigilantism.

While I don't foresee it as a requirement or a possibility, I think you would find that most of the folks here are pretty damned resourceful and can organize very quickly into functional organizations. Most of the folks my age are former Military and even those who are not have worked under some structured organization prior. After watching folks function in and after disasters I would not have any problems believing that, should the requirement arise, folks would be highly organized, whether un-licensed or licensed.
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post #63 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-21-2007, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by NZ Benz
I like the system we have here:

You can gain a licence to own different classes of guns:

The basic allows shotguns and hunting rifiles.
The next is collectors of older weapons
Military weapons (all full auto weapons must be disabled or changed to semi)
Handguns

The police come round to my Dad's house one every 2 years I think and check that he is keeping the guns in a safe or vault under lock and key and that the ammo is stored away from the weapons also under lock and key.

When getting your licence you have to go through gun safety education and also have to be signed off by two people who know you that your not a luni and sit a phyc test.
It's a good system. It adds adminsitrivia to the law abiding and does nothing for the criminal element that would not obey the laws in the first place.

The only good parts to that system is that it REQUIRES gunsafes and safety education. I strongly recommend safes but not everyone has them. I really recommend gun safety classes.

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post #64 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-21-2007, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by cascade
HOW MANY AMERICANS DIE FROM GUNSHOTS EVERY YEAR? someone be my research biatch and tell me, I bet it is a HELL of a lot. Not to count the wounded.

Probably a LOT more than have died in the Iraq war so far.
.
Last year for data was 2004, source is CDC. 29,569 or 10.07 per 100,000. Of those deaths, 56.5% were suicides.

In an odd way of breaking the data, "if you count drug related and suicide, they account for 2/3 of all gun related deaths."

The data counts every death, whether it was suicide, murder, accidental, police shooting, random bullet, sniper, drive-by, etc.

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post #65 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-21-2007, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
They are 11 aren't they? I just have to toss a Playboy in their general direction and the problem is solved.
Unfortunately for humanity you may have to throw in a few crack rocks and a pregnancy test kit to seal the deal.

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post #66 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-21-2007, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
Last year for data was 2004, source is CDC. 29,569 or 10.07 per 100,000. Of those deaths, 56.5% were suicides.

In an odd way of breaking the data, "if you count drug related and suicide, they account for 2/3 of all gun related deaths."

The data counts every death, whether it was suicide, murder, accidental, police shooting, random bullet, sniper, drive-by, etc.
You live in the US I've only visited so I'm not going to tell you about your own country, but for me there is alot of gun crime in the US it's not only deaths were talking about its intimidation etc too. Here is a newspaper I found based in Louisville I think it's about 250,000 people who live there or perhaps 300 I'm not sure but here is the crime reports from the 20th of this month, true it's only one day some of the crimes are from other days too and I've not really looked to see what the trends are but just have a read:

CRIME REPORTS

Now this is the crime report from the NZHerald a newspaper for a country of 4 million people, also note that some stories like the murder of the 8 year old and the slum dwellers taking on gangs are international stories I wish it would show only local crimes but sadly it's not going to.

Crime News - NZ Herald

We do have violent crime in New Zealand but it seems to be that the gun is used far more frequently in the US and it's worroying.

Last edited by NZ Benz; 09-21-2007 at 12:33 AM.
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post #67 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-21-2007, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by cascade
No question, most gun owners are responsible, good citizens who want to feel safe. Even mc bear, Bruce, Fast 55, FTL and every other gun owner you can think of. I really don't have too much issue with that.

You say Even McBear like it's a surprise.

But the NRA and the gun manufacturers are utterly unreasonable in their agenda.

I agree that their position on assault weapons is unrealistic. I understand, however when they argue that if they give one concession, more demands will come. This administration and their desire for wiretaps and searches has proven that point vividly.

Who needs a nation were everyone is armed to the teeth, hyperparanoid, and instantly ready to turn every intersection into the fucking OK corral?

We don't have a nation that is armed to the teeth, hyperparanoid and really, when was the last time you saw an intersection shootout, even on Fox?

There has to be some dark psychological undercurrent with those wanting guns because of "how they make you feel" (which is the ORIGINAL TOPIC here anyway)

Some women are said to buy big SUVs because it empowers them. Men are suppose to be buying Porsches because of small penises. Could the answer just be they want to?

It is true that thugs and street criminals have plenty of guns.

But what about the drunk guy in the family who gets mad and shoots someone when he gets mad in an argument?

It is going to happen with a bat, a knife, a skillet, a car, a brick, rat poison. If someone gets pissed enough to decide to kill, they will kill.

What about the 5 year old who is "playing" with an "unloaded" gun that really isn't?

We talked about the responsibilities earlier. It is the responsibility of the owner to keep weapons away from kids, PERIOD. It happens very infrequently but even that is too much.

And like was said, if our government is so wonderful, and the most free in the world, how come the need to pack heat wherever you go and be ready to shoot bullets into the leaders if we think they are going to be repressive?

Some folks are not as comfortable with their world as they would like. Some have stresses or pressures that have brought them to a decision they make. Some just like the security [real or perceived].

And I haven't seen much shooting bullets into the leaders...


Charles Whitman, David Koresh, Timothy McVeigh, all the rest of them. Just "exercising their 2nd amendment rights". Gawd.

You mention 3:300,000,000. McVeigh would not have been stopped by gun control laws, Charles Whitman would not have been stopped by gun control laws, Koresh, depending on viewpoint, he was either a victim of overzealous law enforcement OR he set fire to his flock. Gun control laws had nothing to help him either.
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post #68 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-21-2007, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by NZ Benz
You live in the US I've only visited so I'm not going to tell you about your own country, but for me there is alot of gun crime in the US it's not only deaths were talking about its intimidation etc too. Here is a newspaper I found based in Louisville I think it's about 250,000 people who live there or perhaps 300 I'm not sure but here is the crime reports from the 20th of this month, true it's only one day some of the crimes are from other days too and I've not really looked to see what the trends are but just have a read:

CRIME REPORTS

Now this is the crime report from the NZHerald a newspaper for a country of 4 million people, also note that some stories like the murder of the 8 year old and the slum dwellers taking on gangs are international stories I wish it would show only local crimes but sadly it's not going to.

Crime News - NZ Herald

We do have violent crime in New Zealand but it seems to be that the gun is used far more frequently in the US and it's worroying.
Louisville is a metropolitan area of over 1,000,000 people and is Kentucky's only Urban area. It has a very high unemployment rate in many areas and there are several active gangs in the areas listed for those crimes.

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post #69 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-21-2007, 12:51 AM
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Well in my fair city we have a culture of ignorant, angry people who will kill you simply for the rep. Half of it is posing but there are plenty of crazy motherfuckers who would eat your spleen. I guess if I bought a shitload of guns I could start shooting at my discretion.

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FWIW I've pleaded with my neighbors in the video to "Keep it down gosh darnit!!" to no avail.

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post #70 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-21-2007, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by NZ Benz
You live in the US I've only visited so I'm not going to tell you about your own country, but for me there is alot of gun crime in the US it's not only deaths were talking about its intimidation etc too. Here is a newspaper I found based in Louisville I think it's about 250,000 people who live there or perhaps 300 I'm not sure but here is the crime reports from the 20th of this month, true it's only one day some of the crimes are from other days too and I've not really looked to see what the trends are but just have a read:

CRIME REPORTS

Now this is the crime report from the NZHerald a newspaper for a country of 4 million people, also note that some stories like the murder of the 8 year old and the slum dwellers taking on gangs are international stories I wish it would show only local crimes but sadly it's not going to.

Crime News - NZ Herald

We do have violent crime in New Zealand but it seems to be that the gun is used far more frequently in the US and it's worroying.
I know we have more gun crime that a country the size of NZ. Anytime you pack large numbers of people into small areas, add poverty and hopelessness you get violence. Inner city violence is vicious. The worst event that I ever was near was when one gang beat another gang with baseball bats. 12 died. Kids growing up in that environment deserve much more than they get.

But NOW, there is a conundrum. There are X number of firearms. 99.9% are kept lawfully and safely by law abiding citizens. No amount of regulation is going to address the .1% that is remaining and causing the death and destruction because that group of people don't and won't adhere to regulations.

So the question becomes, how do you get the guns out of the hands of the BAD GUYS? The 99.9% are not the issue [About 60Million people]. So how do you get the .1% to comply?

Next question is do you allow the public [that 99.9%] to protect themselves in their homes while society figures out how to disarm the .1% of gun owners who are BAD GUYS?

McBear,
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