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post #131 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-22-2007, 12:15 PM
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I own various handguns and rifles.

This is what my sons and I enjoy doing:


YouTube - Todd Jarrett on pistol shooting.


It’s fun, it’s challenging, it requires a great deal of practice. We’re nowhere as good as the guy in the video but we hit a target once in a while. We have a great time.

I understand these are deadly weapons and this is an overall serious issue, but in this venue (the video link, anyway…) everyone’s behaving in a responsible manner.
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post #132 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-22-2007, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith View Post
....

.....I find this argument particularly impotent. I would much rather take my chances with an attacker trying to break into my house armed with a 2x4 than a gun. Same with a knife, baseball bat or fists and feet. I think those kids at Virginia TEch would much prefer to have been assaulted by Cho's hands and feet, or his car.

Jim
It is pretty hard to overlook the target - rich opportunity to explore the correlation between "impotence" and "gun ownership".....

..as the original subject here is the "beauty of of gun ownership" and at least one poster has averred that to him "Happiness is a Warm Gun" and that he "Loves the smell of gunpowder in the morning"......

Jim
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post #133 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-22-2007, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith View Post
This is getting complicated, but my original statement is itallicized, mcbear's response is bold, and my response to his response is "unadulterated" font.

I took out the original comments, my responses and left Jim's very complete responses. Complicated yes, but this makes it easier to discuss. Today I am in Blau


I agree that a real solution will take time, but that wasn't my point. There are people who think the addition of a gun to the equation of their socio-economic situation will make a quick change. For some it does - they die, and others go to jail. But the point is the belief that a gun is a suitable tool to fix their problems if fairly well established in certain quarters and is growing, not shrinking.

I don't really think that many people take up arms to improve their s/e situation, nor perceive it as a tool to fix their problems, armed robbers aside.


So, you agree there are suitable laws on the books that are not being enforced? If that is the case, shouldn't that be a topic to raise to the front of the line? Afterall that merely requires someone to prioritize the jobs assigned to the police and other law enforcement agencies, and they should be law abiding citizens capable of rational thought and self control.

Folks have been jumping up and down for years demanding longer sentences for gun crimes. Look up ALL the Federal and State laws on the books that address firearms. They will make your head swim. After reading the entire set you will wonder how a single intentional death occurs.


I don't know what the mission of the NRA is. What I do know is the NRA participates in campaigning for and against legislation affecting the distribution of guns and ammo. You took a simple comment that they don't campaign for restrictions on the availability of any weapons and turned it into "It is not the Mission of the NRA to help werite legislation for the Gun Control Lobby." As I see things mcbear, campaigning for legislation and writing the legislation are two different things. If the NRA was faced with taking a position on legislation intended to limit the availability of weapons developed for the military to the general public, and they took a reasonable approach and supported the legislation, there would be a great deal less distrust by those who presently view the NRA as a near neo-Nazi group run by gun and ammo manufacturing companies. It is not rational to always support one side of an argument like this one, regardless of the details of the specific argument. Anyone claiming to be supporting safe use of guns for hunting, sport, self defense and collecting that doesn't see military weapons don't belong in the hands of a few hundred million citizens is just one-sided or lying. The NRA has tons of credibility with its members, but zero with those who have not signed up yet. Demonstrating a more rational view of this stuff would go a long way toward defusing this argument and help get back on a road to enforcing existing laws.

I agree that those who are not familiar with NRA give it ZERO credibility. Some of that is real and some if blind hatred based on assumptions and the media. I said that it is not the responsibility of the NRA to write legislation for the Gun Control lobby. That was not intended to be flip. It merely states that it is the position of the NRA to support the rights of gun owners, much of which includes petitioning for stronger sentencing for gun crime. When gun crime goes down the heat is lessened for NRA so their motives are both noble and self serving.


So, why would a bank elect not to use FedEx or UPS? Seems to me that theft, of any sort, involving guns and ammo should be viewed as a very serious crime. Stores, shippers, and manufacturer's warehouses need to be secure to a level that makes theft and distribution to gangs and similar unqualified by any standard to own a gun types impractical to attempt.

I don't know the decision making process of banks. I do know that bearer bonds are shipped FedEx and Treasuries are shipped US Mail so someone has faith in the most reliable shipping industry in the world. [note, remember I had my IBM personnel data lost by FedEx back in February].

I do know that UPS ships many more valuable and secure items than guns or ammo so that is really not an issue, I have never seen a news report of a single gun shipment hijacked from those carriers from an established firearms or ammunition manufacturer.


People who try to kill themselves with other than guns are much more likely to be unsuccessful. Seems to me we shouldn't write off these people as already dead as getting guns out of their reach will likely mean they don't die. I bet more NRA members were in favor of the government "saving" Terry Schiavo than the general public, so they should find some consistent logic in saving people's lives kind of against their will at the moment by government action, shouldn't they?

68% of pill based suicides work first time, 90% of gun based suicides according to the CDC. Does getting guns out of their way mean they won't die, who knows. Getting into the mind of someone who is getting ready to kill themselves is right complicated and they tend to be focused on task.

The 1,000 accidental deaths by guns are also an area where something should be able to be done. "Accidental" deaths by kids getting Daddy's gun to play with are really Daddy's negligence. Daddy should be prosecuted for negligent homicide as a minimum and lose the right to own guns forever. Same if a kid is found with Daddy's gun on the street or the school parking lot, or even in the house (reported by another) in unsafe circumstances. Negligence, jail time and no more guns. There has to be a way to modify bad behavior without intruding on those who behave correctly.

I agree completely about accidentals. Earlier I posted that I thought everyone should have firearms training AND a gun safe for proper storage. I think anything less is pure negligence. I don't know about prosecution as I doubt society could punish those parents any more than they do to themselves.



The same logic can be applied to all the situations you defined with the statistics. However, where the NRA sits on these issues is they will resist legislation that defines more bad behavior as criminal if it is behavior with guns. Yes they will say they are for going after criminals but they then resist legislation that defines people selling military hardware as criminals. The whole position is disingenuous - can you imagine their support in Congress if they openly defied the laws on the books, or advocated their members not comply with existing gun laws? The way I see it is, big fucking deal that they advocate abiding by the laws of the land - to do anything else should bring law enforcement down on them like a ton of bricks. And I am all for strict enforcement of the existing laws. But I bet if they are strictly enforced we see a little NRA inspired weakening of certain laws. Like they showed their support for the laws surrounding the limited distribution of military or military derived guns and ammo.

I think you really need to get a better understanding of what the NRA actually does [not what media or opposition says they do] before drawing some of those conclusions.

I find the NRA to be an organization that could elect to lead this effort, and be instrumental in its success. Instead they take the attitude you expressed - it is not their Mission to support the Gun Control Lobby - which means in simple terms it is their mission to resist it.

No, it simply means, if they were using my phrasing, that they let the Gun Control lobby put in their suggestions, NRA puts in theirs and Congress makes the decisions.

It would be so much better for all involved if they led the Gun Control Lobby for the betterment of the nation. Yeah, there will always be some people out there suggesting there should be no guns of any kind, but they are in the large minority. Most Americans understand there should be no "lots of things" in the world, like cancer or earthquakes asteroids hitting the earth. But they also understand that is not the real world. Because the NRA elects to pit itself against reasonable actions to protect the majority of Americans, the NRA encourages the cooperation of otherwise generally incompatible groups to work for the "Gun Control Lobby." Somehow this is perceived as a good thing by the NRA - they have made it their mission. I wonder why?

Jim
You ASSUME that what the Gun Control Lobby is suggesting is REASONABLE to the MAJORITY of American. I disagree that it is reasonable as it is regulatory bound to the 99.xxx% of law abiding owners and soft on the .1xxx% of Criminal users. I further disagree that the proposals I have read do much of anything to protect the majority of Americans.

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post #134 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-22-2007, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by cascade View Post
It is pretty hard to overlook the target - rich opportunity to explore the correlation between "impotence" and "gun ownership".....

..as the original subject here is the "beauty of of gun ownership" and at least one poster has averred that to him "Happiness is a Warm Gun" and that he "Loves the smell of gunpowder in the morning"......
I believe one is a quote from a song and the other a paraphrase of a movie.

Oh, and barrel size or caliber has no apparent linkage any more than sports car ownership. None of the female owners I know have claimed any issues either.

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post #135 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-22-2007, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
I believe one is a quote from a song and the other a paraphrase of a movie.
Yes, and the poster also stated..."Works for me."

Jim
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post #136 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-22-2007, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith View Post
....

You missed the point. The second amendment says nothing about nukes being illegal. It says you have the right to bear arms. The point is, those words do not mean "guns." To restrict the words to mean "guns" means the words are up for interpretation. You can't have it both ways. If the words are up for interpretation, let’s get on with it and make appropriate interpretations, debate them, and vote on them. If you truly believe you can't have nukes in the hands of citizens for their militia to repel the government should it get out of hand, yet they have them, what good are guns? Same with enemies from outside the country.
No Jim, YOU missed the point. The point is what can be legally owned by an American citizen. There is a point where you take thing to such extremes as to be TOTALLY ridicules, if you want to go there, go by yourself.

All examples of things that might be allowed for historical collections for museums. Not something I would consider is of any value to American society owned by an individual.
Exactly what you consider is valuable or not is immaterial. The fact remains that these things are legal to own by American citizens, and there are in fact a number of them so owned. If you don’t like the laws, see what you can do about changing them, in the mean time you shall not impose your likes and dislikes on anyone but yourself, that’s the law….Live with it.

Americans make America great. Period. When Americans turn to chickenshit, awesome weapons won't save America. Besides the weapons you admire so much are usually made by people. When they are made in America, again, it is Americans who have done the thing you admire.
God, guns, and guts Jim, nothing more, and nothing less. To say it was anything less. is living in your own little world.

I find this argument particularly impotent. I would much rather take my chances with an attacker trying to break into my house armed with a 2x4 than a gun. Same with a knife, baseball bat or fists and feet. I think those kids at Virginia Tech would much prefer to have been assaulted by Cho's hands and feet, or his car.
Again Jim how you might find the argument is immaterial.
Facts are facts and there are a lot of people buried 6 feet under that have been put there by things other than guns. Your father was in the military, so you might have a clue as to why the Colt .45 ACP was developed. The drugged up insurgents weren’t phased by the .38 caliber handguns the US soldiers had, often striking mortal wounds even after getting hit with six rounds or more from our guys. So you think you can take on a drug crazed nut case with a 2x4, or any other weapon mentioned, and survive? Good luck…..
As far as Cho’s hands and feet are concerned, how about if they were tucked inside the tractor of a fuel truck? Would you still feel safer?


Jim
The law is the law Jim, and at least some small part of the Second Ammendment is being tested yet again in the DC courts. They will have far more to say, and their words will carry far more weight then yours will ever have.

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post #137 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-22-2007, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade View Post
It is pretty hard to overlook the target - rich opportunity to explore the correlation between "impotence" and "gun ownership".....

..as the original subject here is the "beauty of of gun ownership" and at least one poster has averred that to him "Happiness is a Warm Gun" and that he "Loves the smell of gunpowder in the morning"......
Hey cascade, if that is a problem for you, I would suggest that you deal with it on your own terms. The Second Amendment is there to guaranty that all the rest of them will stay in place. I really don’t care if you believe me or not, just look at what the framers of the Constitution stated after the Constitution was written and signed…. :
GunCite: Second Amendment-Quotes from the Founding Fathers and their contemporaries on the right to keep and bear arms.
HISTORICAL QUOTES ON THE SECOND AMENDMENT
The Founding Fathers on the Second Amendment
Right to Keep and Bear Arms & Liberty Quotes

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
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post #138 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-22-2007, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by cascade View Post
It is pretty hard to overlook the target - rich opportunity to explore the correlation between "impotence" and "gun ownership".....

..as the original subject here is the "beauty of of gun ownership" and at least one poster has averred that to him "Happiness is a Warm Gun" and that he "Loves the smell of gunpowder in the morning"......
Cascade, although some may consider this "spam", I feel it is my duty to inform you of one of our products we formulate especially for gun owners, Pistol Dick, which is a combination of a suburb penile growth supplement and a premier gun blueing cream. Simply rub both barrels, and one can see immediately both an enlargement and a simultaneous lustrous (heh heh) sheen, improving both of one's proudest possessions. And to investors, we believe we have discovered an enormous (heh heh) market in this product, as the need for male enhancement and gun ownership has been immensely proven in our statistical correlations. And for those gun owners who have moved to a more advanced stage of their firearm obsession, may we recommend our anti-Erectile Dysfunction cream Deadeye Dick?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

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post #139 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-22-2007, 04:09 PM
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FTL, got any products for gun control? These guys need something to keep them from shooting off all by themselves.

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post #140 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-22-2007, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
You ASSUME that what the Gun Control Lobby is suggesting is REASONABLE to the MAJORITY of American. I disagree that it is reasonable as it is regulatory bound to the 99.xxx% of law abiding owners and soft on the .1xxx% of Criminal users. I further disagree that the proposals I have read do much of anything to protect the majority of Americans.
Again, I think there is a reasonable compromise of gun ownership rights and the right for average Americans to feel secure from abuse of those rights by criminals, fatal accidents, and nuts like Cho. You are correct. I do not think the NRA and its "you're with us or you're against us" approach. I cannot fathom their support for retaining a right to own a plastic gun, for example. And while researching their position on the ban of "cop killer bullets" I learned a bit about them, as well as the NRA's approach. When police organizations supported the first version of the bill, they attacked the police organization leadership. Same with the ban on assault weapons and the plastic guns. It is this approach that puts them at odds with a reasoned solution.

Nearly all have conceded the second amendment does not grant Americans the unassailable right to own certain military hardware that comes under the definition of arms. Once that point is conceded the sacred position that the second amendment guarantees the right to own any weapon the NRA calls a "gun" is lost. The words are either absolute or they aren't and if they aren't the interpretation is up to the entire population, not the NRA.

Jim
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