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post #31 of 64 (permalink) Old 09-02-2007, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by NZ Benz
Were you guys even offically at war with Vietnam anyway?
It was all a carefully designed political fiction. We start by defining a fictitious country called "South Vietnam" and another one called "North Vietnam" even tho it is a single country in the midst of a horrendous civil war. We claim we are there as allies, helping to "police" the country. Later, under the "Gulf of Tonkin Resolution" we claim we are "defending" this country.

Iraq was done in the same way. We claim we are not waging war, we are "enforcing UN Resolutions" even the UN was totally against our doing so.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #32 of 64 (permalink) Old 09-02-2007, 09:11 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
Read the fucking thing, you idiot.
I have many times. I carry a little leather-bound, gold-leafed copy w/ me. In fact, I'm looking at it right now. You might want to get one and read it yourself. It's published by Post Minatures...

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post #33 of 64 (permalink) Old 09-03-2007, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Jayhawk
The Constitution requires no such thing. The right to make war is the sole purview of the President of the United States. That's why he is called Commander-in-Chief. Looks like you flunked History 101 too!
From Article 1, Section 8, Powers of Congress:

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

There's more in there about raising armies and such, its a good read . . . you should do it sometime . . .

The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

FWIW, the authorization to use force in Iraq does meet this requirement, IMHO.

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post #34 of 64 (permalink) Old 09-03-2007, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Jayhawk
The Constitution requires no such thing. The right to make war is the sole purview of the President of the United States. That's why he is called Commander-in-Chief. Looks like you flunked History 101 too!
Oh, really? <in sarcastic voice>

Just exactly where does it state that in the Constitution?

Can you quote exactly where, giving chapter, verse, line and page?

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post #35 of 64 (permalink) Old 09-03-2007, 07:27 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by edfreeman
From Article 1, Section 8, Powers of Congress:

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

There's more in there about raising armies and such, its a good read . . . you should do it sometime . . .

The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

FWIW, the authorization to use force in Iraq does meet this requirement, IMHO.
I said wage war not declare war. And I can assure you that what we are doing in Iraq is completely legal--or the demon-dems would have impeached the President long ago...

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post #36 of 64 (permalink) Old 09-03-2007, 07:28 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cascade
Oh, really? <in sarcastic voice>

Just exactly where does it state that in the Constitution?

Can you quote exactly where, giving chapter, verse, line and page?
Bend over and I'll show you where you can put your "chapter and verse..."

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post #37 of 64 (permalink) Old 09-03-2007, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Jayhawk
I said wage war not declare war. And I can assure you that what we are doing in Iraq is completely legal--or the demon-dems would have impeached the President long ago...
Now, Jay, you really don't believe the COTUS allows a president to go make or wage war without the Congress on board, do you? I agree the Iraq thing was authorized, but in the absence of that authorization, GW couldn't have done it.

And, it is true we haven't "declared war" the way we used to, these days we go for those resolution things that authorize use of force. I guess resolution sounds better, but the effect is still the same.

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post #38 of 64 (permalink) Old 09-03-2007, 10:42 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by edfreeman
Now, Jay, you really don't believe the COTUS allows a president to go make or wage war without the Congress on board, do you? I agree the Iraq thing was authorized, but in the absence of that authorization, GW couldn't have done it.

And, it is true we haven't "declared war" the way we used to, these days we go for those resolution things that authorize use of force. I guess resolution sounds better, but the effect is still the same.
As I read the COTUS the President CAN go to war w/out Congressional approval. It is always better to get Congressional "concurrence," but no approval is required. Besides, we are not at war w/ Iraq. That only lasted a couple of weeks. Iraq is now one of our key allies in the broader war on terror. And al-Qaeda declared that war on us a long time ago, and I doubt that any sane person will disagree that we are at war w/ them and terrorists world-wide.

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post #39 of 64 (permalink) Old 09-03-2007, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by edfreeman
From Article 1, Section 8, Powers of Congress:

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

There's more in there about raising armies and such, its a good read . . . you should do it sometime . . .

The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

FWIW, the authorization to use force in Iraq does meet this requirement, IMHO.
THE PRESIDENT'S CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY TO CONDUCT MILITARY OPERATIONS AGAINST TERRORISTS AND NATIONS SUPPORTING THEM
post #40 of 64 (permalink) Old 09-03-2007, 10:56 AM Thread Starter
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Bush in Iraq now to see if US buildup is working

President Bush is in Iraq and speaking to our troops at this moment. He is accompanied by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and met up with his Defense Secretary Robert Gates and top military commanders at the desert airbase of Al-Asad in Anbar province west of Baghdad. "This is the last big gathering of the president's military advisor's and the Iraqi leadership before the president decides on the best way forward," said Geoff Morrell, a Pentagon spokesman traveling with Gates.

It is kind of amazing to see all the top US and Iraqi leaders meeting there and talking serious shit. It will be interesting to see what comes of the two days of meetings.

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