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post #11 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-25-2007, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
The right wing has retreated from Benzworld.
Don't get complacent. Bruce R. may be regrouping, and will be roaring back in his A37 Dragonfly left over from Tan Nhon Sut airport in Saigon in 1975 to strafe the BWOT forum

SIR yes SIR

Jim
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post #12 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-26-2007, 08:24 AM
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Just between you and me, I doubt I will not be losing sleep over that.

He was last spotted at his local Wal Mart, looking for snide, haughty, sarcastic and supercilious remarks, as he was all out and needed to stock up on more.

He gets them cheaper by the case. Designo_E320 told me that was because he is Jewish and always is after a bargain.
Well, yes, but then again, he was useful as a foil.
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post #13 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-26-2007, 08:47 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
Glad to see you got your licks in.
Just following instructions, sir.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #14 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-26-2007, 10:42 AM
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I find the superficial argument put forward - the more or less known number of deaths that are attributed to the US withdrawal from South Vietnam trumping any projected numbers for those who ask what the death toll for staying, and for how long because one is a supposed real number based on history and the other is a projection based on a hypothetical assumed scenario - exactly that, superficial. I cannot understand anyone who supposes there was a real mission for the US in Vietnam. I am nearly equally mystified why the perpetuation of North and South Korea is viewed as a success. When do we get to stop playing Daddy to South Korea? Is there a plan? Is there some strategic need to be there that best serves the national interests? Would we have used the "success" of the Korean solution to model a similar solution for Vietnam? Is it the model for a solution of a three or more way split up of Iraq? Are we all crazy?

The answer to Bot's perspective on this is a GS pointed out. The number of deaths dating from our initial involvement to when we left, and by the very fact we got involved the scope of the difficult aftermath following our departure needs to be held up against the cost in human suffering resulting in the subsequent reunification of Vietnam. I think those numbers are clear. And, can serve as a basis for estimating the losses that would have been incurred if the conflict had been sustained for another decade, or two, or three, or more.

The answer is clear, the best thing for the people of Vietnam was for outsiders to leave. If that isn't clear there is a problem that prevents logical assessments and good judgement from prevailing. Usually such afflictions can be traced to emotions. Jim
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post #15 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-27-2007, 05:10 AM
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There was a valid Cold War argument on Korea - if the Chinese were able to gain it they could then successfully mount an invasion of Japan from there. Since at the time Japan was an essentially defenseless US Protectorate, one could argue that the defense of South Korea was necessary. But the man thing was that the North Korean communists were a nasty lot, and the people of South Korea wished nothing to do with them. Unlike in Vietnam, South Korean troops were motivated and fought well, and the population of South Korea did not support any indigenous movements. If the same thing had occurred in Vietnam, we would have had a successful partition.
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post #16 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-27-2007, 06:54 AM
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Well, maybe at the time the step seemed vital to hold back China from invading Japan. Doesn't seem that way to me in reality. I mean, what is holding them back today? Surely not our presence in South Korea?

Jim
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post #17 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-27-2007, 07:04 AM
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Today it is all changed. In the early 1950's Russia and China were closely allied, and there were no intercontinental missles. The fear was China and Russia would invade Japan or export communist revolution to Japan using Korea as a jumping off point, and then station bombers in Japan to threaten the US while they exported revolution to the rest of Asia. Historically, Korea spent most of it's history as either a province of Japan or China, each using it to threaten the other. Southern Korea was heavily japan-sized, while Northern Korea was always heavily influenced by China.

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post #18 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-27-2007, 07:12 AM
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So, why do we need to keep troops in South Korea? If the South Korean forces are able to defend themselves, let them. Jim
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post #19 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-27-2007, 11:56 AM Thread Starter
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We don't, nor do we need to maintain forces in Japan. Our protection under a nuclear umbrella is all that is required, since S. Korea and Japan are probably the two most formidable military powers in the entire region.

In fact, the primary detriment toward withdrawal from S. Korea is their subsequent maintenance as a U.S. ally. We have a long and sordid history of supporting brutal dictators, mass murder and the suppression of democracy there, and locals tend to have a long memory...

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post #20 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-27-2007, 01:03 PM
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Overwhelming numbers of troops...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanStar
We don't, nor do we need to maintain forces in Japan. Our protection under a nuclear umbrella is all that is required, since S. Korea and Japan are probably the two most formidable military powers in the entire region.

In fact, the primary detriment toward withdrawal from S. Korea is their subsequent maintenance as a U.S. ally. We have a long and sordid history of supporting brutal dictators, mass murder and the suppression of democracy there, and locals tend to have a long memory...
This is a very educational discourse.

I think it should be mentioned, though, that as was demonstrated
in 1950, regardess of any other factors regarding equipment and supples, Communist China had an OVERWHELMING superiority in manpower, and a seemingluy limitless number of troops.

That has not changed today.

On that note, it ALSO seems that in Iraq, and to an extent in Afghanistan, there seems to be a similar limitless number of insurgents and terrorists that keep popping up, and the only way to stop it would be to slaughter the ALL women who keep giving birth to them, and the Mullahs who educate them in hatred.

Jim
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