Draft report logs bleak outlook for Iran - Page 2 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 08-23-2007, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith
This is where we part philosophies. There is no evidence to suggest Israel will, based on their past pronouncements or practices, use their nukes to attack anyone in the region. They are constantly faced with aggressive and threatening rhetoric that is often followed by suicide bomber attacks and missile bombardments. Yet they don't use their nukes.

I have no interest in seeing anyone else on the face of the earth get nukes. I would suggest the UN make it a "given" that the UN won't tolerate it either. Iran is off base. They can negotiate for all kinds of other goodies for energy sources, or freely pursue other than nuclear solutions to their perceived impending energy crisis. Iran, whether its people are accurately represented or not, has a government that loudly proclaims as a priority the destruction of Israel. Until this stops, and the subterfuge involved in arming Israel's neighbors to fire missiles and send in suicide bombers stops, Iran just isn't a credible nation for being granted access to nuclear power.

The world would not, as I see it, be a better place because Israel ended, ceased to exist. The Middle East has so many factions so ready to kill each other, I think the whole thing would imperceptibly different. It might not involve the US as it does today, but given all the oil there, that can't be assumed either.

So, as I see it and I am not a dyed in the wool supporter of Israel, Iran has a lot of growing up to do, as does much of the rest of the Middle East, before they can be trusted with dangerous technologies. Pretty simple. Make a treaty and live by it for once. Change the pattern. But bleating about Israel is just not solving the basic problem unless you are going to make a credible case for Shiites and Sunnis hating each other because of Israel too. Jim

Well said. The current Iran government would love to absorb Iraq, which would give them ground (and troop) access to Israel. Think about the strategic view and you will understand the importance of a Democratic Iraq.
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 08-23-2007, 08:32 PM
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Iraninas do not like the Ayatollahs but then how much westerb support did they have on the face of ailing democratic government?? Their saga is like eastern europe..abandoned to be lonely in the world.

The Iranian are fedup of ayatollahs corruption and brutality, rising poverty and inflation, loss of jobs and lawlessness. They simply want some stablity and financial freedom.


Israel is just a scape goat to blame everything onto and for corrupt middle east regimes to legitimize their presence by chanting anti-israel slogans.

Fuel economy!! whats that??

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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 08-24-2007, 12:47 AM Thread Starter
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This was interesting, from last month:

WorldNetDaily: Most Iranians oppose regime


WorldNetDaily: Most Iranians oppose regime
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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 08-24-2007, 01:01 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RNT
Well said. The current Iran government would love to absorb Iraq, which would give them ground (and troop) access to Israel. Think about the strategic view and you will understand the importance of a Democratic Iraq.
The big picture for Iran's Mullahs kleptocracy ambition might be control of the Southern half of Iraq (there are almost there, thanks to GW's brilliant leadership), influence through Syria (plenty of Shia), and extending the axis into Lebanon. Without Iranian support and money, Hezbollah would resemble a deflating balloon.
Not to forget financial help to Hamas.
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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 08-24-2007, 03:21 AM Thread Starter
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August 20, 2007
Red-Handed


From FOX News: Iran's Revolutionary Guards: We Will 'Punch' U.S.

Iran's elite Revolutionary Guards said they would not bow to pressure and threatened to "punch" the U.S., in their first response to Washington's plan to list them as a terrorist organization, newspapers reported Saturday.
Local press in the Iranian capital of Tehran quoted Revolutionary Guards leader Gen. Yahya Rahim Safavi saying that he could understand Washington's ire toward the group because of their "leverage" against the U.S.

"America will receive a heavier punch from the guards in the future," he was quoted as saying in the conservative daily Kayhan. "We will never remain silent in the face of U.S. pressure and we will use our leverage against them."

There was no elaboration on what Safavi meant by the punch or the organization's "leverage."


From FOX News: U.S Troops Tracking Iranian Forces Aiding Shiite Militias in Iraq.

American forces are tracking about 50 members of an elite Iranian force who have crossed the border into southern Iraq to train Shiite militia fighters, a top U.S. general said Sunday. ...
Maj. Gen. Rick Lynch, whose command includes the volatile southern rim of Baghdad and districts to the south, said his troops are tracking about 50 members of Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps in their area — the first detailed allegation that Iranians have been training fighters within Iraq's borders.

"We know they're here and we target them as well," he said, citing intelligence reports as evidence of their presence.

He declined to be more specific and said no Iranian forces have been arrested in his territory.

"We've got about 50 of those," he said, referring to the Iranian forces. "They go back and forth. There's a porous border."


From The Washington Times editorial page: Serial killers of Americans. (via TIA Daily)

The IRGC [Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps], through its longstanding relationship with Hezbollah, has the blood of hundreds of Americans on its hands — among them the 241 American servicemen who were killed in the Oct. 23, 1983, bombing of the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon. In essence, SDGT designation will treat the Revolutionary Guards, who are heavily involved in obtaining nuclear weapons technology and supporting terrorist organizations, much the same as the Cali and Medellin drug cartels, making it possible to move relatively quickly to seize the organization's business assets — which are substantial. Federal officials said that the IRGC would become the first military branch of a national government to be included on the terrorism list — which generally consists of non-state actors.
For more on Iran's war in Iraq, see the links in this post: State of War.
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post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 08-24-2007, 05:07 AM
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Iranian Revolutionary Guards "Leverage"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teutone
August 20, 2007
Red-Handed


From FOX News: Iran's Revolutionary Guards: We Will 'Punch' U.S.

Iran's elite Revolutionary Guards said they would not bow to pressure and threatened to "punch" the U.S., in their first response to Washington's plan to list them as a terrorist organization, newspapers reported Saturday.
Local press in the Iranian capital of Tehran quoted Revolutionary Guards leader Gen. Yahya Rahim Safavi saying that he could understand Washington's ire toward the group because of their "leverage" against the U.S.

"America will receive a heavier punch from the guards in the future," he was quoted as saying in the conservative daily Kayhan. "We will never remain silent in the face of U.S. pressure and we will use our leverage against them."

[COLOR="Red"]There was no elaboration on what Safavi meant by the punch or the organization's "leverage."[/COLOR="Red"]


From FOX News: U.S Troops Tracking Iranian Forces Aiding Shiite Militias in Iraq.

American forces are tracking about 50 members of an elite Iranian force who have crossed the border into southern Iraq to train Shiite militia fighters, a top U.S. general said Sunday. ...
Maj. Gen. Rick Lynch, whose command includes the volatile southern rim of Baghdad and districts to the south, said his troops are tracking about 50 members of Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps in their area — the first detailed allegation that Iranians have been training fighters within Iraq's borders.

"We know they're here and we target them as well," he said, citing intelligence reports as evidence of their presence.

He declined to be more specific and said no Iranian forces have been arrested in his territory.

"We've got about 50 of those," he said, referring to the Iranian forces. "They go back and forth. There's a porous border."


From The Washington Times editorial page: Serial killers of Americans. (via TIA Daily)

The IRGC [Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps], through its longstanding relationship with Hezbollah, has the blood of hundreds of Americans on its hands — among them the 241 American servicemen who were killed in the Oct. 23, 1983, bombing of the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon. In essence, SDGT designation will treat the Revolutionary Guards, who are heavily involved in obtaining nuclear weapons technology and supporting terrorist organizations, much the same as the Cali and Medellin drug cartels, making it possible to move relatively quickly to seize the organization's business assets — which are substantial. Federal officials said that the IRGC would become the first military branch of a national government to be included on the terrorism list — which generally consists of non-state actors.
For more on Iran's war in Iraq, see the links in this post: State of War.
"I'm all out of money. Do you take hostages?"

Jim
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post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 08-24-2007, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimSmith
This is where we part philosophies. There is no evidence to suggest Israel will, based on their past pronouncements or practices, use their nukes to attack anyone in the region. They are constantly faced with aggressive and threatening rhetoric that is often followed by suicide bomber attacks and missile bombardments. Yet they don't use their nukes.

. Jim
Jim, it doesn't matter if they use them or might use them. What matters is that Israel just does not behave and it does so BECAUSE it has nukes and the support of USA and acts like a bully and continues to do all that which is illegal. If they didn't have nukes, maybe they would feel a little more venerable and behave. Either they need to have their nukes taken away or others in that region built up to Israel's level. All I am saying is that there should be a balance of powers. USA and he international courts have ruled that building settlements in the occupied territories is illegal yet Israel keeps doing it instead of tearing them down and continuously squeezing the Palestinians further and further. The Palestinians cannot even go from one place to another and almost all of the Palestinians are now living in slums and are living as refugees INSIDE Palestine! Did you watch CNN's God's Warriors? Did you see how powerful AIPAC is and how it is now dictating our foreign policy to benefit Israel? As a matter of fact, the AIPAC is working out of the United States working AGAINST US policy.
Until Israel destroys EVERY settlement constructed in the occupied territories and hands over Old Jerusalem, a chance at peace cannot even begin. All of these settlements built on occupied territories is private land owned by Palestinians.
Furthermore all Palestinians who have been kicked out must be allowed their birth right to come back.
Israel can get away with all of this because it KNOWS it can protect herself and the fact that if it came to it then as a last resort they can always push the button. If they didn't have that button, then maybe it would behave. If someone else in that region had this button, then even then it would behave.
With all of this said, do you actually think that the Iraq war was "Bush's little project?" Absolutely not! This had been in the making by the AIPAC for years prior to 9-11 for Israel's benefit. I wonder why? Iran is next on AIPAC's agenda.
Bush Sr. tried to add a condition to Israel's "loans" that USA would give the money ONLY if Israel will not use it to build in the occupied territories and said that he would not change this decision as it was a US policy, yet within a few days he "surprisingly" announced that the loans would be "UNCONDITIONAL". Yet AIPAC collects hundreds of millions of dollars (tax deductable) and sends it to Israel FOR THE purpose of building and bettering the setlements which is agaist US policy. Why has AIPAC not been shut down yet? I wonder what would happen to a group or organization if it collected money to send to Iran to help with its nuclear ambitions, another no no as far as US poliy is concerned? What do you think happened? Was Bush Sr. threatened? Was an offer made to get Bush Jr. elected? People serving time in prison for being spies for Israel charged with espionage are heroes to Israel, "our friends" and have been given honorary citizenships and Israel and the AIPAC is working diligently to get their release so that they can go to Israel because they now are Israeli citizens. Do you see how our country is not even ours anymore and how the MAIN power in this country that dictates our policy is NOT the US government but rather the AIPAC? As a matter of fact the US government is actually a puppet government for the AIPAC to which the US govt bows . EVERYTHING is being done to benefit Israel without any regard to the United States and its citizens. The amount of money that is given to Israel is just absurd. Can all of these resources not be used to tackle problems that the American society faces? Hell, EVERY student can go to college for absolutely free. Every American's health-care can be provided WITH money left over without the need for a nationalized health-care and can be done in the same system that we have! I wonder why people (including myself) blame the Republicans and Democrats. These guys are just puppets working for the benefit of Israel (AIPAC). They day they start to think about what is good for America is the day they loose their seat.
Don't blame the Dems and Republicans. Blame Israel and the AIPAC for every problem that we have today in our country. No I am NOT anti-semitic nor Anti-Israel. I am just pro-America and believe that America comes first!

Last edited by Designo_E320; 08-24-2007 at 06:31 AM.
post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 08-24-2007, 07:36 AM
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I agree that American interests should come before Israel's interests when those interests are not aligned. The same is true regardless of what nation you substitute for Israel. That perspective comes with being an American, or should.

From my perspective there are only "occupied territories" because someone made an aggressive move on Israel and lost. Israel did not attack and its neighbors and steal land from them out of the blue. In the intervening years Israel has given much of the land it occupied after those aggressions by its neighbors back to them. Typically after some kind of negotiated treaty that attempts to have the returned land serve as ransom for security for Israel. Many of these treaties have been nothing more than charades. Soon after the treaty is signed and the land given back, the suicide bombing or missile attacks start again. It makes it difficult to give the last chunks of occupied land back as the evidence is there is no one with the real authority to make a meaningful peace agreement on the side of the Palestinians.

The remaining occupied land should be returned subject to some treaties that grant Israel security. This has been an issue for a great deal of time. Until Israel is able to sit across the table and negotiate with someone with the authority to make a meaningful agreement to ensure Israel's safety, and the strength to enforce that treaty, your perspective is not going to get much traction. Arafat had many opportunities and seemed to be the most complete authority for the Palestinians for quite a while. He didn't. Instead he played games. The two groups now claiming to represent Palestinians are killing each other, as well as Israelis. Hardly an environment for beginning serious negotiations from Israel's perspective.

And then you have Iran and Syria trying their best to keep tensions high with Israel too. Israel having a nuke button doesn't seem to be doing them much good from that perspective. And within those countries you have strife between groups, which is really small potatoes compared to the ages long conflicts of Shiites and Sunnis.

I think there is but one solution to proliferation of nukes and that is to clearly ban it and enforce the ban without any leeway including by force. This should be a UN function. It should have been a higher priority a long time ago, like an hour after we dropped the bomb on Japan. That way we would not have nukes in Pakistan, or India and possibly Israel.

And, unfortunately, nuclear power requires too many tools and skill sets that are common with weapons production to be allowed anywhere without strict controls. Enforcing strict controls for long periods of time, like from the day you get the technology until the world ends from some other natural disaster means there has to be a stable government with the means to protect the hardware and the technology. Nuclear power is also potentially dangerous in its own right, which is also grounds for limiting its use in nations with unstable governments and poor general security. Mere sloppy operating habits can represent serious dangers to millions of people.

Unfortunately, Iran fits the description of a country that should not be given free access to nuclear technologies. Tying that assessment to Israel's present status is unrealistic and frankly a bit childish. Continuing to link the woes of the Palestinians to Israel is sounding less than sincere. Once the rest of the violence in the region has come under some kind of control, when Shiite and Sunni are coexisting peacefully and Arabs and Persians stop randomly killing each other, maybe then a discussion of disarming Israel might get some traction. But the way these areas behave as a whole right now is not supporting your argument.

But this is just my perspective. Jim
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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 08-24-2007, 05:00 PM
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Nukes for Iran?

Designo_E320, two brief points: (after reading carefully your last post)


Israel never has urged that Iran be wiped off the face of the Earth


Israel would NEVER give up old Jerusalem. The Palestinians would need to take it from them by force. And then hold it.

Jim
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post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 08-24-2007, 05:42 PM
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heh, heh........Designo, being an American, you must wake up and accept the fact that as far as America is concerned, Israel does come first! heh, heh.......your complete politcal and financial infra-structure is controlled by the Zionists! heh, heh........funding supplemented by the dumbass Saudis! heh, heh........
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