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post #91 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-13-2007, 01:27 AM
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"The whole thing was made by the supreme being".


Oh really? Evidence? And what exactly brought this 'supreme being' into exstence?
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post #92 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-13-2007, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by deathrattle
JimSmith

"The whole thing was made by the supreme being".


Oh really? Evidence? And what exactly brought this 'supreme being' into exstence?
For some the fact that "it" "is" is sufficient evidence. For others the needless and pointless arguing about the origin of shit we don't understand is enough of a waste of time to invent a means to "give" the stuff we agree we don't understand, and all the shit we don't know enough yet to even suspect it may exist, to the other side in the hope they will leave us alone while we go about gathering more information, and discovering more of the rules. The only condition of the gift is that when one of the items that was "given" to the other side becomes something we can explain, they have to give it back. Since the list of shit we don't understand is so big, the few items that come back now and then won't matter unless we attach excessive and unwarranted additional concessions to it - like they can't have their creator anymore.

For others it is much more valuable to argue and create hate and discontent over issues that will never be decided in any of our lifetimes. They somehow perversely enjoy wasting all that intellectual capacity while tempting and taunting the hordes of "faithful" to strike out at them. I don't see it. I am happy to strike an agreement where I freely acknowledge the limits of my, and the body of science's ability to explain our observations. The most troubling question, "why?" is not one that is even being worked on, because, in the grand scheme of things we don't even know enough of what "is" to frame a good "why?" question. Given the "why?" question is the one that ultimately involves the (deus ex machina, also fabricated by others but at a time when the right form of the question was even more poorly articulated) invention of a creator, a supreme being, the "jurisdiction" of the supreme being and creator should be constrained to the "why?" question, and not the "what?" and "when?" and "how?" questions that are better answered, in time, by science.

Until I see some better evidence there is no creator behind the "why?" question, I find the argument that there is no creator pretty thin. It is much like the question of "where does the Universe end?" If it you say it ends or has an edge somewhere, what is on the other side of the end or edge? All pretty pointless shit when the mortgage is due.

Jim
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post #93 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-13-2007, 07:18 AM
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^^^^

I will read that a few more times later, but for the moment it seems you have evaded the short answer to the even shorter question.

Who or what made the supreme being? If that has no answer then the beginning of space-time from a singularity is equally valid, surely?
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post #94 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-13-2007, 08:25 AM
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^^^^

I will read that a few more times later, but for the moment it seems you have evaded the short answer to the even shorter question.

Who or what made the supreme being? If that has no answer then the beginning of space-time from a singularity is equally valid, surely?
The short answer is who gives a shit. Only people who enjoy arguing about things they don't understand. I am not one of them. I would rather come to some understanding with people that is pragmatic. I do not need for there to be "proven" a creator does or does not exist in my life time. I do want to be unencumbered as I explore the "what?", "When?" and "How?" questions. The "Why?" question is about a subject that is too tainted with emotional bullshit, and too poorly understood to be framed properly to even get an answer that would be meaningful. This is not the case with the other questions as we can make them specific enough to provide answers we can use, even to pay the mortgage. Jim
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post #95 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-13-2007, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith
The short answer is who gives a shit. Only people who enjoy arguing about things they don't understand. I am not one of them. I would rather come to some understanding with people that is pragmatic. I do not need for there to be "proven" a creator does or does not exist in my life time. I do want to be unencumbered as I explore the "what?", "When?" and "How?" questions. The "Why?" question is about a subject that is too tainted with emotional bullshit, and too poorly understood to be framed properly to even get an answer that would be meaningful. This is not the case with the other questions as we can make them specific enough to provide answers we can use, even to pay the mortgage. Jim
I don't see anywhere that I have asked a 'why' question. I have simply asked you to justify your statement, 'The whole thing was made by the supreme being'
If all you wish is to be pragmatic, then why add a level of complexity by evoking a supreme being? It seems you are contradicting yourself.
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post #96 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-13-2007, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by deathrattle
I don't see anywhere that I have asked a 'why' question. I have simply asked you to justify your statement, 'The whole thing was made by the supreme being'
If all you wish is to be pragmatic, then why add a level of complexity by evoking a supreme being? It seems you are contradicting yourself.
My earlier statement is a description of an outlook I happen to maintain as part of an offering to be considered to avoid arguing about whether there is or isn't one. Let that question be answered by those with something extra invested in the answer. We don't know and never will, in our lifetimes. And those willing to consider there might not be one seem to have less emotional baggage invested in their position as it is not essential to any scientific explanation of any feature of the universe. So, being free of the weight of a large investment gives them an intellectual agility to use for purposes other than engaging in an utterly useless banging of heads over there being or not being a creator. I am suggesting it be used to pose an argument that moves those heavily invested in there being a creator away from having to frame every conflict with the scientific community from the perspective that believing scientific evidence for a different explanation also means they have to give up their belief in their creator. Make the creator question not the issue. Make the issue one of enabling them to be enlightened by the small discoveries by mankind about the "What, When and How" questions we are able to answer without being threatened about there being a creator.

The believers in the creator argue because their organized religion implores them to defend the existence of their creator in order to maintain their power. Remove that aspect and you may be able to have a rational discussion of the facts, or even to be able to agree to disagree and coexist peacefully. Go to the motive of those who sustain these arguments, and give them whatever they need that is not essential to the science.

And, the issue of the creator is a "why?" question. Jim

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post #97 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-13-2007, 12:17 PM
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I prefer deffinitions 4, 2b... of certain dictionarys:

su·preme- adg.
...
4. last or final; ultimate.
...
be·ing- n.
...
2...
b The totality of all things that exist.


meaning what has/will come to pass

Who or what made it? ... You did baby, you did.

-Marty


"...pour out of one vessel into another; and as those old Romans robbed all the cities in the world, we skim the cream of other men's wits, pick the choice flowers of their tilled gardens to set our own sterile plots."
-a Richard Burton

Last edited by A264172; 08-13-2007 at 12:31 PM.
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post #98 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-13-2007, 03:15 PM
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What does faith mean to them ! as in those who cry faith , it's always been an excuse to kill each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend .
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