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post #41 of 60 (permalink) Old 08-07-2007, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theboss
Islam has distinct explanation of both. Believers fall in category who testify one God grouped as People of the Book. This includes:

- Zaboor (given to David),
- Torah (given to Moses),
- Bible (given to Christ)

As per the Quran what ever is levied on believers is permissible for Muslim and vice versa with exception of swine and alcohol. Their women can be taken in marriage however the opposite is not permissible. The taxation in Islam called Zakat is not levied on people of book living under Islamic state however a pre-agreed sum or percentage can be imposed on them as tax. Any form of taxation collected from non-muslims is differenciated as Jizya. It is agreed that such tax collected fom religious minorities should go into welfare of those and shall not be mixed with other financial affairs of state as per the Islamic principles of financial fairness.

Business, agreements and treaties can be made as long no party involved violates it which is the pretense to any agreements in real life anyway.

Islam separates itself from extensive politics and has devised only a basic framework. So in absence of any discriminatory regulations, its understood that People of the book under Islamic state have equal rights to representation, business, justice, property, finance and affairs of state.

* O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for rulers/patrons ; they are protectors of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a ruler/patron, then surely he is one of them; surely God does not guide the unjust people. [Qur'an 5:51]

* And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit. [Qur'an 29:46]


NB:
1. The first verse is guidance towards a political situation where as the second in purely religious. Also in literal value the former is preceded by later.

In other places the Qur'an says:

* Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Ma'rûf and forbid Al-Munkar ; and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are Al-Muttaqûn .(3:113-115)

* And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. '(3:199)'

* Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . [Qur'an 2:62]

* Say (O Muhammad ): "O people of the Scripture : Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but God, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God. [Qur'an 3:64]

Next comes the question of Non-believers, that is those who do not believe in God or oneness of God. People who fall in this category are:
- Idolaters (Hindu, buddhist, and such)
- Atheists

A very clear message in Quran for them is;
* Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold forbidden that which hath been forbidden by God and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [Qur'an 9:29]

This verse is obviously aimed toward time of conflict and engagement.

These people are considered to have committed the utmost sin of defying and even denying existence of God the creator and admitting partners with him ie: Shirk. They are total opposite of believers and have turned to man made idols for worship. In the words of Quran, these people continue to roam on earth and avail creations of Allah while defying the existence of one who created them and everything they avail. They are ungrateful denialists who ban upon themselves the pleasure which God as deemed permissible on man. Such people shall not live under Islamic state unless they accept a to live in subjugation and isolation.Their slaughter is not permissible for Muslims even if it came from permissible cattle. Muslims on individual front are advocated to minimize their ties and contacts as much as possible with these people without engaging in outright practices of discrimination or prejudice because all humans are created equal and one shall not think of himself superior than other. Only God has the right to judge this. However this does not banish their rights to civil liberties and protection. Neither their places of workship and population are to be attacked unnecessary unless they are built on occupied Muslim land like pagan era Makkah infiltrated with idols. Think of them as people living under scrunity because their ideology is deemed to dangerous just like how Muslims are living in post 9/11 America.

When Prophet conquered Makkah he did not run wild slaying idolaters instead went right into Haram and ordered destruction of all idols.

The above mentioned verse was also used by late King Faisal to justify his anti-soviet stand and advocation to all Muslim countries for cutting off ties with atheist communists.

None the less the Islam does not advocate mixing of politics into religion or turning religion into mainstream political movements. An Islamic state is defined as a region governed by a justified Muslim ruler sworn in power by popular alliegence of people he governs ie: early form of voting. Freedom to Islamic faith and practices is guaranteed and Islamic regulation are observed where advised.

For the Muslim minority living in Non-Islamic state, they must portray themselves as one believer should, do not engage in unjustified practices and abide by rules of state. In case of situation turning unfavorable like insecurity, prejudice, racism, singling out due one ones faith then they shall seek migration to more favorable location or established Islamic state.

Eg:
Prophet migration to Medina after situation turned intensely unfavorable in Makkah and Muslim migration towards Africa.



Muslims are also compromised of some of the most improvised and poorest nations on earth ruled by most brutal dictators and corrupted self serving regimes. Loss of economics if directly attributed to engagement in evil activities. When a woman cannot source means to shelter and feed her kids she goes out into prostitution business. When a man cannot do the same he becomes pressurized and hopeless and looks into means of suicide which is strictly forbidden in Islam hence becomes a ripe target for cash loaded mullahs. They are turning misery of one into double benefit by promising him heavens and look after to his family. The man is hopeless anyway willing to meet death in his own hands so it doesn't matter what way it comes or he has to take down someone else with him.

Blame nobody but self and the white house which continues to violate principles of its founding fathers and forges relations with tyrants and monarchies of corruption.

Couldn't have said it better brother.
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post #42 of 60 (permalink) Old 08-07-2007, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M44
Let's see here. Osama Bin Laden, Born to a wealthy Saudi family. Fought Soviets in the invasion of Afghanistan. Ayman al-Zawahiri. Eqyptian. Met Bin Laden in Afghanistan. Wrote a book outlining Al Qeada strategy. Ayatollah Khomeini. Born in Iran, hated US, Israel. I'd look for others but it pretty much proves my point.
I was only refering to the people in wikipedia list whose link was posted. Ofcourse terrorist gangs operate east to west and have fugitives on both side. Do bother to read the entire thread before getting wild with reply button or is that you cant read as well??

Fuel economy!! whats that??
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post #43 of 60 (permalink) Old 08-07-2007, 12:58 PM
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Well, I am still waiting for mass condemnations by Islamic authorities.
Nobody seems to have the balls to publicly take a stand and choose sides.
In this regard Islamic authorities and our spineless politicians seem to be in perfect agreement.
It is so much easier to incite mass protests against a stupid Danish cartoon.
I can't believe i'm hearing these words from a moderator. Is there a moderator for the moderator?
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post #44 of 60 (permalink) Old 08-07-2007, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
Actually, it does have a very specific meaning, but the word has been intentionally misused and misapplied by the Bush administration and others toward their own political ends.
ahmen to that!
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post #45 of 60 (permalink) Old 08-07-2007, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theboss
...Blame nobody but self and the white house which continues to violate principles of its founding fathers and forges relations with tyrants and monarchies of corruption.
...
This question interests me a great deal: What then would be the circumstance today if 'self' (only the U.S.) had followed principles of its founding fathers? ...Meaning what would be the political reality of mid east be today? Of course I know you don"t know but I wonder if you have a notion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theboss
what intresting is all these terrorist in the name of Islam were formed in the west taking advantage of democratic freedom. Shall i saw they specifically escaped to west or stayed there in order to exploit its freedom?? had they been in any Islamic state or gulf block they would be executed publically for their conduct against public good.
This is not true. Maybe true in ideal Islamic state... but not in the reality of Islamic states today... which are hither and tither in search of political advantage and will break any code to achive it.

-Marty


"...pour out of one vessel into another; and as those old Romans robbed all the cities in the world, we skim the cream of other men's wits, pick the choice flowers of their tilled gardens to set our own sterile plots."
-a Richard Burton
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post #46 of 60 (permalink) Old 08-07-2007, 02:24 PM
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To me everyone is terrorist including the neighour who stole my chiken and the mischevious kids who made my donkey run away!!

Fuel economy!! whats that??
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post #47 of 60 (permalink) Old 08-07-2007, 02:31 PM
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To me everyone is terrorist including the neighour who stole my chiken and the mischevious kids who made my donkey run away!!
Then you need to take a deep breath, get away, and relax a bit. Thats why the west and east of you alike, allow consumption of alcoholl!

-Marty


"...pour out of one vessel into another; and as those old Romans robbed all the cities in the world, we skim the cream of other men's wits, pick the choice flowers of their tilled gardens to set our own sterile plots."
-a Richard Burton
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post #48 of 60 (permalink) Old 08-07-2007, 02:45 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omeyhomey
I can't believe i'm hearing these words from a moderator. Is there a moderator for the moderator?
Once more:

Originally Posted by Teutone
(Re post)
Well, I am still waiting for mass condemnations by Islamic authorities.
Nobody seems to have the balls to publicly take a stand and choose sides.
In this regard Islamic authorities and our spineless politicians seem to be in perfect agreement.
It is so much easier to incite mass protests against a stupid Danish cartoon.



Re. Condemnation of 9/11 etc. by Islamic authorities.
Islam has no central figure like the Pope in Christianity. The caretakers of Mekka and Medina cannot be considered independent within the context of Saudi leadership, and to call on Irans Mullahs is akin to getting an opinion on pacifism from someone like Mikhail Bakunin. Scholars of Islam speak out against Terrorism: Scholars of Islam & the Tragedy of Sept. 11th US Muslim Scholars to forbid Terrorism: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...072702082.html
I am not sure whether this is too little, too late, or the beginning of a dialog?
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post #49 of 60 (permalink) Old 08-07-2007, 04:37 PM
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Islam is higly individual and has not established any centralized authority as every beliver is closer to Allah according to strength of his fate. However after the fall of imperialism and influx of soviet idealogy in Muslim countries many ought to revolutionize Islam by merging it in main stream politics and carving out Islamo-Socialism.

Islam and politics do not mix and where they are forced to, its simply everything gone wrong. Thats why judging criminals by their theological profile is least efficienct. Rather one shall investigate their social and political idealogies. Those calling for communist like Islamic system are obviously socialist and those calling mass murder of Jews are obviously Nazi. Theology is just a scape goat here, a banner to appeals the masses under.

Just as if Arabs could give up their monarchy egos under the so called banner of Islam, not only middle east peace could be archived but also the dispute of holy lands, fate of Palestinian homeland and an end to mother of all violence. This however will never become a reality as long "In Dollars, Throne and Oil we trust".
Quote:
Originally Posted by A264172
..

This is not true. Maybe true in ideal Islamic state... but not in the reality of Islamic states today... which are hither and tither in search of political advantage and will break any code to achive it.
Well the intents of these people were criminal doesn't matter which geographic region or country. They would dive where ever its easier to achieve their aims and in our case the freedom of west was easier to exploit compared to controlled states of east under dictators and monarch scrutinies.

Fuel economy!! whats that??

Last edited by theboss; 08-07-2007 at 04:42 PM.
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post #50 of 60 (permalink) Old 08-07-2007, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teutone
Once more:

Originally Posted by Teutone
(Re post)
Well, I am still waiting for mass condemnations by Islamic authorities.
Nobody seems to have the balls to publicly take a stand and choose sides.
In this regard Islamic authorities and our spineless politicians seem to be in perfect agreement.
It is so much easier to incite mass protests against a stupid Danish cartoon.



Re. Condemnation of 9/11 etc. by Islamic authorities.
Islam has no central figure like the Pope in Christianity. The caretakers of Mekka and Medina cannot be considered independent within the context of Saudi leadership, and to call on Irans Mullahs is akin to getting an opinion on pacifism from someone like Mikhail Bakunin. Scholars of Islam speak out against Terrorism: Scholars of Islam & the Tragedy of Sept. 11th US Muslim Scholars to forbid Terrorism: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...072702082.html
I am not sure whether this is too little, too late, or the beginning of a dialog?
heh, heh......stock up on rations! heh, heh.......you are in for one hellova WAIT! heh, heh.......
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