"Mistrust as Iraqi Troops Encounter New U.S. Allies" - Page 3 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-05-2007, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce R.
We have already seen, there is absolutely no doubt, you really ARE stupid.
And you are a chicken, I will call you that every time you call someone something which you are and will only shut up after your promised FBI visit. So it is in your interest that you call them about me or I will keep hounding you and exposing you for the cunt that you are. You called me a terrorist I call you a cunity cunt pussy, how's that? Who's stupid now?
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post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-05-2007, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
There's that astonishing telepathy again.

B
The majority of the Sunnis in Iraq were card carrying Baathists. That was the best way they could get even a shoe shine job, so again FTL IS RIGHT
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post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-05-2007, 09:36 AM
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Just look at these clowns. Bruce cannot carry on a logical argument, his every retort is either an insult or a "hey, nevermind that, look over here!" strawman argument. Botnst makes blanket assertions with no back up and is routinely led to the intellectual slaughter pen as I am just beginning to do here. Botnst, what the fuck point do you think the captain is trying to make here? The same god damn one I am making. Wake up you dumb shit.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-05-2007, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by drewprof
The majority of the Sunnis in Iraq were card carrying Baathists. That was the best way they could get even a shoe shine job, so again FTL IS RIGHT
The bottom line is that the US has no friends in Iraq. Now we have to resort to arming our enemies to fight even worse enemies. The only support we have in that country is among those the rest of the place considers collaborators with Iran or traitors. The whole rationale for this war is totally unravelling. Tell me, after the Baathists are through with Al Queda, just what the fuck do you think they are going to do with all these nice new shiny weapons we are giving them?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-05-2007, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
The bottom line is that the US has no friends in Iraq. Now we have to resort to arming our enemies to fight even worse enemies. The only support we have in that country is among those the rest of the place considers collaborators with Iran or traitors. The whole rationale for this war is totally unravelling. Tell me, after the Baathists are through with Al Queda, just what the fuck do you think they are going to do with all these nice new shiny weapons we are giving them?
A shiite and Kurd extermination party
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post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-05-2007, 09:47 AM
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Experts Analyze American Progress with Iraqi Insurgents
PBS


Four months into a troop increase in Iraq, the United States is arming Sunni tribes to quell insurgencies in the region. John Burns of The New York Times describes the tactic, then international policy adviser Stephen Biddle and former military official Phillip Carter talk about the "surge" strategy.
General David Petraeus

audioRealAudioDownload videoStreaming Video



GWEN IFILL: Now a two-part look at efforts to quell the Iraqi insurgency. We begin with a report on U.S. efforts to engage Sunni tribal leaders in the fight against al-Qaida in Iraq. We get that from New York Times Baghdad Bureau Chief John burns. I spoke with him earlier this evening.

John, welcome back. So what we understand here is now that the United States forces are trying to work out a plan where they engage or they pay Sunni groups in order to go after al-Qaida. How is that going to work?

JOHN BURNS, Baghdad Bureau Chief, New York Times: Well, it's an expedient, of course, that has been tried before, in fact, quite frequently before in counterinsurgency wars of this kind. If you can split the insurgency, if you can, if you will, suborn some elements of it by giving them arms, ammunition, cash, fuel and other supplies, obviously you change the balance of the equation.

The problem here in Iraq is that the people that they are trying to recruit, if you will, to the American side of this war -- or, if you will, the Iraqi side of this war -- are Baathist insurgents who have been fighting the United States forces here now for four years and who have played a considerable role in killing more than 3,500 American troops.

It's an enterprise fraught with risk, obviously, because, how long do these people, in effect, stay bought and stay loyal? The intent is to split the insurgency and have the Baathist insurgents, if you will, go after al-Qaida and to drive al-Qaida from the battlefield.
It's a long shot. It's not hard to understand why American generals want to give it a try, but it is certainly fraught with risk.

GWEN IFILL: What precautions have been put in place, John, so that they know who is friend and who is foe?

JOHN BURNS: Well, at the front end of this, to answer your question a little obliquely, the problem is that it's very hard to know who you are talking to, who you are negotiating with, to whom you are supplying arms, because there's very little forensic evidence.

There is a supposition, and more than a supposition in some areas, that these people belong to Sunni Baathists or elements of the insurgency that have, in fact, fought and killed Americans. It's altogether likely that, in most cases, that will not be provable and that these -- if you will, these deals will go through.

They're going to attempt to, if you will, fix the loyalty of these groups to whom, you know, support is given by various forensic means. They're going to subject all of the members of these groups to biometric tests. That's to say retina scans, fingerprints, and they're going to record the serial numbers of all weapons that are transferred.

The hope is, of course, that, should these groups in effect betray their new American patrons by attacking American troops or attacking, for that matter, Iraqi troops, that it will be possible, ex post facto, to caught onto that fact.

GWEN IFILL: Internally, is this something that the Shiite-led government, the Army and the Iraqi police, are in league with, or is this something they have some problem with, seeing as how these are their enemies?

JOHN BURNS: They have a problem with it. This began in al-Anbar province to the west of Baghdad, counting for something like 30 percent of the territory of Iraq, crucially important stretch of territory bordering Jordan to the west, Syria and Saudi Arabia, which, as I think many of your viewers will know, was for a very long time the most dangerous place in Iraq. It's overwhelmingly Sunni.

Now, a deal with tribal sheikhs there who have recruited what in British imperial times would have been called tribal levies, and among them former Baathist insurgents, has worked very well in Anbar.
The levels of violence in the last four or five months have really plunged.

Where it involves an overwhelmingly Sunni population, the Shiite-led government in Baghdad doesn't have much of a problem with it. They do have a problem when you try and introduce this in mixed Sunni-Shia areas, and that, unfortunately for the Americans, includes many of the areas they are now attempting to replicate this procedure in, in central and north-central Iraq, which is to say Sunni-dominated areas on the approaches to Baghdad, where there are significant Shiite populations.

And not surprisingly, the Shiite leaders of the present government don't much like it, because they are looking beyond the American troop presence here, a year or more down the road, to the point where I think it's now rather widely assumed here the struggle for power will become, in fact, an all-out civil war between Shiite and Sunni groups. And weapons and ammunition passed now by the Americans to Sunni groups, of course, are going to empower the Sunnis in that, let's hope avoidable, but widely expected, if you will, cataclysm.


They are saying that they will not knowingly arm anybody who has American blood on his hands.

Knowing your enemies

GWEN IFILL: So does this mean that the United States forces have essentially given up on any pursuit of Shia militias, who have theoretically been linked in some ways to these al-Qaida groups?

JOHN BURNS: That's a very astute question, Gwen. We've not heard nearly so much from across the river from where I'm standing now, in the Green Zone, the American command complex, about militias in recent months. And I think that's because it came to be understood that the Shiite leaders of the present government, with their militias, would simply resist it. They were not going to stand down, the armed wings of the Shiite religious parties.

So American pressure, if you will, has shifted to such other things as oil or as constitutional revisions and so forth. The Shiite leaders having resisted standing down their own militias, most obviously the Mahdi Army militia of Muqtada al-Sadr, are in a weaker position to resist the American forces here, in effect, giving weapons to Sunni militias.

But you're quite right. There is a contradiction here. But you'd have to say, how many options are left to American generals? Their surge has not gone as well as they hoped. It's only four months into the surge. We know the surge is not going to last beyond April '08, but the returns on that surge to date have been discouraging.

Sectarian violence went down; it's back up again. The other main killer in this war, suicide bombings, have gone down in Baghdad, but up elsewhere, as al-Qaida has moved elsewhere. So the generals are looking for ways to turn the tide in this war.

And what they're doing with this venture in attempting to arm Sunni Baathist militias, if you will -- see, you could say it's an act of desperation.
You could say it's an act of realism. It was tried in French colonial Algeria. It was tried in British Balaia. It was tried in Vietnam, with varying results, most of them negative. So we'll have to see where this goes.

But I have to say, it's understandable why American generals who are under pressure to prevail in the war and to prepare to get American troops home are not closing off any avenues. And they are, by the way, saying -- and it's crucial to be fair in this -- they are saying that they will not knowingly arm anybody who has American blood on his hands.

General Rick Lynch, the commander of the Third Infantry Division, whose forces guard the southern approaches to Baghdad, the worst of the worst badlands in this war for very long periods of time, said yesterday in a briefing that -- he said, any negotiation with any group that has people in it who've killed American soldiers -- and his soldiers included, those four who were killed in an overwatch position a month ago in a Humvee, and three who were abducted, one of whom was found floating in the Tigris, subsequently, two of whom are missing, and sadly I think you'd have to say now are unofficially presumed dead -- General Lynch said here's how the negotiation is going to go if we run into people like that. It's going to be, "You're under arrest, and you're coming with me."

So they're going to try, if you will, apply due diligence here. But that's very difficult to do in a war where the American military has never known exactly who their enemy is.

GWEN IFILL: John Burns in Baghdad for us once again tonight, thank you very much.

JOHN BURNS: Thank you, Gwen.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 08-05-2007 at 09:49 AM.
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post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-05-2007, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by drewprof
The majority of the Sunnis in Iraq were card carrying Baathists. That was the best way they could get even a shoe shine job, so again FTL IS RIGHT
You may be right. Not sure.

If you had said that the majority of Baathists were Sunni I would whole-heartedly agree.

But you see, the Turkomen and Kurds are also Sunni and I don't know what proportion of them were also Baathists. Do you or that genius, FTL, know? Could you maybe get a telepathic assay?

If you had said, "Many of the Baathists were Sunni Arabs" I would completely agree. Remember that many Arabs in Iraq are Shiites.

And this is why I said that ol' FTL was exercising his telepathy organ again. He was able to deduce, with no evidence, that a bunch of Sunni Arabs were former Baathists. It's that accuracy thingie.

But the implied argument is stupid: That a person who was once a member of a party is always a member of that party. Are you of the same party affiliation as when you first voted? I'm not (thank goodness). In fact, I think my former party is freaking power-mad and has no core virtues.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-05-2007, 06:43 PM
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You have become a blithering idiot.

Educate yourself:

FRONTLINE: the insurgency: interviews: michael ware | PBS


...

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 08-05-2007 at 06:52 PM.
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post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-05-2007, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
You have become a blithering idiot.
Oh yeah? Well your dog told me you masturbate him while watching Boosh on TV.

I just hope you wash your hands before digging into the tandoori. It'd be a doggone shame not to.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-05-2007, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
You may be right. Not sure.

If you had said that the majority of Baathists were Sunni I would whole-heartedly agree.

But you see, the Turkomen and Kurds are also Sunni and I don't know what proportion of them were also Baathists. Do you or that genius, FTL, know? Could you maybe get a telepathic assay?

If you had said, "Many of the Baathists were Sunni Arabs" I would completely agree. Remember that many Arabs in Iraq are Shiites.

And this is why I said that ol' FTL was exercising his telepathy organ again. He was able to deduce, with no evidence, that a bunch of Sunni Arabs were former Baathists. It's that accuracy thingie.

But the implied argument is stupid: That a person who was once a member of a party is always a member of that party. Are you of the same party affiliation as when you first voted? I'm not (thank goodness). In fact, I think my former party is freaking power-mad and has no core virtues.
I am glad that you left the Nazi party!
I should have been very precise; I was talking about Arab Sunnis that are represented by the Iraqi insurgency as we speak. These were ex-Baathists and many were part of the Fidayeen group (the ones that looked like white ninjas whenever Saddam strutted his shotgun prowess while they marched, remember those?)
The Kurds for the most part are really looking forward for Iraq to split for obvious reasons that I hope you can visualize.
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