I'm confused why the Democrats want to immediately withdraw from Iraq? - Page 9 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #81 of 146 (permalink) Old 07-31-2007, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by maine_coon
However, it was fucking scary when US left Nam.

It looked like the Soviets were winning everywhere.

Had Soviets not invaded Afghan, had Reagan not been elected, had Gorbachev not been able to get on top, we would live in the very different world now.
I never believed it for a second. Given the state of the South Vietnam Kletocracy, communism was obviously the best thing for these people. A US fascist-puppet state would have worked about as well there as it did in Iran.

Communism is an incredibly efficient system, but it sows the seeds of it's own destruction. I think it does wonders for pre-modern capitalist societies where capitalism is essentially gangsterism. China and Vietnam were both rotten to the core with corruption and warlordism. The South Vietnamese government was the most corrupt shit pile we ever let rob us blind. The communists totally wiped out this segment of society with ruthless efficiency. Sorry to say this, but for the most part, they were not hanging Patrick Henry from a tree, they were killing people who needed to be killed - criminals who ripped them off and traitors who collaborated with colonialists. Once they were removed from society, democracy could finally begin to take hold. Sadly, Saddam Hussein was doing the same favor for us in Iraq with the religious crazies. We never know when to keep our stick out of the hornet's nest.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

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post #82 of 146 (permalink) Old 07-31-2007, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
I never believed it for a second. Given the state of the South Vietnam Kletocracy, communism was obviously the best thing for these people. A US fascist-puppet state would have worked about as well there as it did in Iran.

Communism is an incredibly efficient system, but it sows the seeds of it's own destruction. I think it does wonders for pre-modern capitalist societies where capitalism is essentially gangsterism. China and Vietnam were both rotten to the core with corruption and warlordism. The South Vietnamese government was the most corrupt shit pile we ever let rob us blind. The communists totally wiped out this segment of society with ruthless efficiency. Sorry to say this, but for the most part, they were not hanging Patrick Henry from a tree, they were killing people who needed to be killed - criminals who ripped them off and traitors who collaborated with colonialists. Once they were removed from society, democracy could finally begin to take hold. Sadly, Saddam Hussein was doing the same favor for us in Iraq with the religious crazies. We never know when to keep our stick out of the hornet's nest.
FTL, if we were in red China or Nam, you would be in the first echelon to be eliminated.

And me too, most probably.

And then the rest of the posters on this forum.

With very few exceptions.
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post #83 of 146 (permalink) Old 07-31-2007, 11:37 PM
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I doubt that.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #84 of 146 (permalink) Old 07-31-2007, 11:39 PM
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^Regardless of justification for us sticking our nose where it doesn't belong, the old communist countries aren't too hot on free speech fanatics.
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post #85 of 146 (permalink) Old 08-01-2007, 04:40 AM
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You got that right. I am not stupid like you who would throw my life away for some politician's wet dreams.

I am amazed that some people are indeed proud of being stupid.
You seem to be quite proud of that fact, aren't you.............

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
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"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
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post #86 of 146 (permalink) Old 08-01-2007, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by cascade
Your remarks about that conflict reflect an obstinate inability to see any viewpoint other than your own. Good god man, you said that Walter Cronkite lost the war. That is patently absurd.
This one comment tends to show what you know about that war, and the things that are going on around you now.
That comment was made by LBL after he (LBJ) heard the evening news. Get your history straight, if you don’t know about the events, don’t tell folks that do, that they are wrong.
Your lockstep with the liberals is obvious, as is your fascination with my guns. Could it be because you can't have any in "The Peoples Republic of Kalifornia"?

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
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post #87 of 146 (permalink) Old 08-01-2007, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
I doubt that.
You said that the communist system was incredibly efficient. Where and when was that?

However, I do agree with you that the communists would not execute you. You'd fit right in with the commissariat.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama

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post #88 of 146 (permalink) Old 08-01-2007, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Shane
^Regardless of justification for us sticking our nose where it doesn't belong, the old communist countries aren't too hot on free speech fanatics.
Well, of course they aren't. They are totalitarian systems. I am certainly not advocating them, I am simply pointing out that they may become necessary for societies that need the mechanisms of totalitarianism to solve their problems. China had an enormous problem with corruption based on the most vilest of human corrupters - opium addiction, child prostitution, slavery, government corruption, foreign occupation and exploitation, and famine on scales beyond human imagining.

In pre-communist China, the profit motive was the problem, not the solution. Communism became a solution for this society because capitalism failed it, because of its state as a society at the time. The solution involved mass executions, mass arrests, concentration camps and the loss of civil rights, but for the most part, this happened to a lot of people who deserved it.

Vietnam was not much different, and in addition they had the problem of a collaborationist element within their society that cooperated with foreign invaders and colonialists for a couple of centuries, and as in Iraq, we sided with what were essentially traitorous elements within that society. So, Communism and nationalism became necessary for them to solve the problem of, well, er, us. We might not have like it, but in the end it brought them to a place where they can begin to have a fair society. One could say the same is true for Iran, Iraq under Saddam, Russia after the czars, all for pretty much the same reasons - all resorted to totalitarian systems simply because the conditions in their society made it necessary for them. Unfortunately, we have never been able to accept the fact that the majority of people within those societies may have been ok with it, because within their own culture they understood why it was necessary.

As Americans, we are so propagandized we think societies will solve all their problems if they simply become Americanized. This idea has always been the bane of our existence. Social systems are complex systems with local culture and histories creating different local norms. I think societies are also Darwinistic in nature, that over time all are evolving towards the same thing - highly developed capitalistic societies with elements of socialism whose purpose is to keep the evils of the capitalistic system in check through the rule of law.. Attempts to stop or reverse this evolution lead to violence and disruption within a given society, because the entire purpose of these complex systems is to create a fair society.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #89 of 146 (permalink) Old 08-01-2007, 06:59 AM
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You said that the communist system was incredibly efficient. Where and when was that?

However, I do agree with you that the communists would not execute you. You'd fit right in with the commissariat.
Communism is most efficient at war and defense. Command economies, whether communist or national socialist, are really nothing more than militarianism extended into all facets of life. Like all armies, they are brutally efficient at doing certain basic things involving the control of human beings and the provision for their basic existence. Russia beat Germany because it had a more efficient system for war. Same with Vietnam. Same with us, at certain times. America in World War II essentially adopted a command economy for the duration of the war. It is our failure to do so in the current war that has led us to disaster, in fact the American system of warfare that combined elements of communism with capitalism probably brought war to its zenith as an art in both 1863 and in 1944, rivaled only by Russian Communism's defeat of Nazism, which they were able to do simply because they were able to out-produce the Germans in the production of war materials due to their ability to command every facet of human existence within their society. Nazi Germany, a country the size of the state of Texas, came close to conquering a third of the world because of its totalitarian system.

As long as a Communist society is under external attack, it is perpetrated. Look at Cuba and North Korea. It fails in peacetime because of a psychological trait of the human being - relative deprivation. As soon as its citizens feel they are no longer under external threat and become aware that they could have a better way of life if they changed elements of their society to capitalism and democracy and they as a society have reached a point where they are able to take on the responsibilities of citizens within a democratic society, they will do it. Nazism was essentially an attempt to get around this weakness in Communism by creating a society that was always under threat, both internal and external, defeated in the end only by the combined world, which had adopted much of totalitarianisms methods in order to do so. I dare say our current method of warfare would have worked very well against them.

And yes, if I was a nationalist within a given society of these types, I would probably be part of one of these systems if I felt it was necessary to fight off a foreign invader or mass corruption and evil. Within a democratic society, one can do the same thing by being a member of a peaceful political party.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

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post #90 of 146 (permalink) Old 08-01-2007, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
Communism is most efficient at war and defense. Command economies, whether communist or national socialist, are really nothing more than militarianism extended into all facets of life. Like all armies, they are brutally efficient at doing certain basic things involving the control of human beings and the provision for their basic existence. Russia beat Germany because it had a more efficient system for war. Same with Vietnam. Same with us, at certain times. America in World War II essentially adopted a command economy for the duration of the war. It is our failure to do so in the current war that has led us to disaster, in fact the American system of warfare that combined elements of communism with capitalism probably brought war to its zenith as an art in both 1863 and in 1944, rivaled only by Russian Communism's defeat of Nazism, which they were able to do simply because they were able to out-produce the Germans in the production of war materials due to their ability to command every facet of human existence within their society. Nazi Germany, a country the size of the state of Texas, came close to conquering a third of the world because of its totalitarian system.

As long as a Communist society is under external attack, it is perpetrated. Look at Cuba and North Korea. It fails in peacetime because of a psychological trait of the human being - relative deprivation. As soon as its citizens feel they are no longer under external threat and become aware that they could have a better way of life if they changed elements of their society to capitalism and democracy and they as a society have reached a point where they are able to take on the responsibilities of citizens within a democratic society, they will do it. Nazism was essentially an attempt to get around this weakness in Communism by creating a society that was always under threat, both internal and external, defeated in the end only by the combined world, which had adopted much of totalitarianisms methods in order to do so. I dare say our current method of warfare would have worked very well against them.

And yes, if I was a nationalist within a given society of these types, I would probably be part of one of these systems if I felt it was necessary to fight off a foreign invader or mass corruption and evil. Within a democratic society, one can do the same thing by being a member of a peaceful political party.
The Soviet Union beat the Nazis because they were able to sustain casualties at a higher rate than the Nazis. In a free society, Zhukov (Marshal Zhukov. Russian General of WW II/pk000003 Release date: 1998 Reproduction 1998, Size appr. 17.5 inches by 23.3 inches (45 x 60 centimeters).) would have been relieved of his command in disgrace for the incredible price the USSR paid in lives for each victory over the Nazis.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama

Last edited by Botnst; 08-01-2007 at 10:09 AM.
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