I'm confused why the Democrats want to immediately withdraw from Iraq? - Page 6 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #51 of 146 (permalink) Old 07-31-2007, 09:51 AM
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.....
And by the way I don't have a dog.
Anymore.

Jim
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post #52 of 146 (permalink) Old 07-31-2007, 10:08 AM
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FEMA is a federal agency and had a role in the aftermath of Katrina. They could have been better prepared without depending on any State and local government officials to get prepared. But, it was Bush's cabinet member, the Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice who made it absolutely how confused the federal government run by George W. Bush was when she said "no one could have known" the levees would fail. You can pawn off the failure to run a vital federal agency effectively by pointing at the local state and city officals. Hell, I have watched you pawn off virtually every other Bush failure on someone else, and it is usually a Clinton. So your desire to excuse the federal government's dismal failure to serve the people afflicted by Katrina's wrath, a failure that continues to this day with no changes in sight, is noted. Along with your anger that anyone would percieve Bush to be truly incompetent. It is consistent with your past history and makes you seem, well, to put it bluntly, a bit like a modern day Nazi, but a Bush saluting one instead of a Hitler saluting one.
Jim
You might note the above in RED Jim. If it wasn't for the MAJOR screw ups by Ray Nagin and Kathleen Babineaux Blanco there most likely wouldn't have been anywhere near the mess that occurred after the fact.
Both Nagin and Blanco were asked if they wanted or needed help BEFORE the hurricane struck, and both refused. It's a well known fact that Blanco waffled when asked if she wanted that help after it struck.
The School busses up to their headlights in water are clear evidence of Nagins incompetence.
You like to blame Bush for everything, and yes he has to take SOME, BUT NOT ALL. Give some to those that were there on site and were SUPPOSED to have a plan. By the time Nagin was finally ready to send his people out of town; all the bus drivers were smart enough to have left. There was no one there to drive the busses.
Thanks for the Nazi comment, it puts you in the same category as FoTL as far as I’m concerned. Bush has done a number of things that I don’t like, but to see him get blamed for things that YOU and other Leftists consider wrong, even when it is legal and proper, goes against my grain.

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
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post #53 of 146 (permalink) Old 07-31-2007, 10:09 AM
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Anymore.

Jim
Never did..............

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
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post #54 of 146 (permalink) Old 07-31-2007, 10:12 AM
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So apparently you think that once we leave Iraq, everything will be OK? AlQueda will leave us alone?
You really believe that huh?
The question is posed, again, with the assumption that what we are doing, sending thousands of Americans to be bait for Al-Qaeda and other extremists in the Middle East to kill is somehow more acceptable than the undisclosed but presumed horrid consequences that will result after a pull-out. Which is pointless.

There is no evidence we cannot effectively secure our borders and protect the American people for less than the present rate of loss of life and treasure that we are experiencing in Iraq. Why don't you describe and defend your outlook on what will happen once we leave, and then contrast that with your view of what staying in Iraq will reap for us. Please include fatalities per year, wounded per year and cost in national treasure.

There is no connection, even today, between 9-11 and Iraq. Yes, we have successfully turned Iraq into a hell hole "so we can fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" in spite of the fact that Iraq did not threaten us. A major aspect of that hell hole we created is Al-Qaeda. We are training them in all kinds of new ways to attack us, and serving as their best and most effective recruiting tool. We are running our military down, wearing both men and machines out faster than we are replacing them. In my view that is not making it more difficult for Al-Qaeda to attack us, here on American soil, in the long term. I think it enables a more serious and cowardly strike against us in the future. And, in the mean time, we have made cooperation with our former allies and friends more difficult by openly abandoning the original reasons we had friends and allies - we are eroding the very foundation of what America stands for in the world and at home.

Somehow you think that is fine, even a good plan. I don't and I am happy to deal with the true enemies of America in other ways. And taking out leaders of Al-Qaeda and their supporters around the world sounds like a good place to start.

You conveniently ascribe aspects of pacifists to all of us who find George Bush's raping of the Constitution and the American people offensive. You do that to make your case easier to believe. It is a form of self delusion if you didn't realize it before. Self delusion is a character trait of George W. Bush too. Jim

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post #55 of 146 (permalink) Old 07-31-2007, 10:24 AM
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Jim, the only one here in a form of self delusion is you. Your Dem. buddies in Congress are changing their minds on the effectiveness of what's going on in Iraq. When will you start to disrespect them?

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
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post #56 of 146 (permalink) Old 07-31-2007, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce R.
You might note the above in RED Jim. If it wasn't for the MAJOR screw ups by Ray Nagin and Kathleen Babineaux Blanco there most likely wouldn't have been anywhere near the mess that occurred after the fact.
Both Nagin and Blanco were asked if they wanted or needed help BEFORE the hurricane struck, and both refused. It's a well known fact that Blanco waffled when asked if she wanted that help after it struck.
The School busses up to their headlights in water are clear evidence of Nagins incompetence.
You like to blame Bush for everything, and yes he has to take SOME, BUT NOT ALL. Give some to those that were there on site and were SUPPOSED to have a plan. By the time Nagin was finally ready to send his people out of town; all the bus drivers were smart enough to have left. There was no one there to drive the busses.
Thanks for the Nazi comment, it puts you in the same category as FoTL as far as I’m concerned. Bush has done a number of things that I don’t like, but to see him get blamed for things that YOU and other Leftists consider wrong, even when it is legal and proper, goes against my grain.
Go read the legislation that gives FEMA its charter, through the President. There was much FEMA could have done other than wrest control of the local authorities from the Governor or Nagin. But nothing was done. No reviews of readiness plans, nothing. And the rationale offered was, "no one could have known" the levees would fail. But, hey, it is your talking point from the White House Propaganda Dissemination Office and we know you can't back up. Jim
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post #57 of 146 (permalink) Old 07-31-2007, 01:20 PM
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Go read the legislation that gives FEMA its charter, through the President. There was much FEMA could have done other than wrest control of the local authorities from the Governor or Nagin. But nothing was done. No reviews of readiness plans, nothing. And the rationale offered was, "no one could have known" the levees would fail. But, hey, it is your talking point from the White House Propaganda Dissemination Office and we know you can't back up. Jim
Jim, the offers were made and NO ONE took them up, period, end of story.
There was no way Bush or FEMA could force help on those that were not willing.
As to the White House Propaganda machine, well if only it were half as good as the Democrat Propaganda machine, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
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post #58 of 146 (permalink) Old 07-31-2007, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith
Go read the legislation that gives FEMA its charter, through the President. There was much FEMA could have done other than wrest control of the local authorities from the Governor or Nagin. But nothing was done. No reviews of readiness plans, nothing. And the rationale offered was, "no one could have known" the levees would fail. But, hey, it is your talking point from the White House Propaganda Dissemination Office and we know you can't back up. Jim
The USACE has been saying since the mid-1980's that the levees would fail in a category 3-4 storm. The state was given millions of dollars of pass-through money to maintain the levees. The money was handed-out in the time-honored tradition of political patronage through a network of interlocking "levee boards". Interviews and records reveal that few board members were engineers and most of them didn't even conduct the inspections that they received money to conduct. The USACE knew about this graft and public failure and did nothing.

The Congress and Administration, in their great wisdom and deliberations following 9/11, passed legislation creating Homeland Security and moved FEMA into that department, making it's funding dependent on undersecretaries' deliberations. It also forced FEMA to create a bureaucracy just to deal with it's sister agencies. The Adminstration further crippled the organization by putting a political hack in charge of the agency.

During these growing pains in DHS, Katrina hit a city known for political corruption and incompetence run by a mayor who was unpopular with his Democrat Party bosses and the Democrat governor. The mayor and gov had not spoken in months. For 1994's Hurricane Ivan which was tracking to hit NOLA, Mayor Nagin ordered an evacuation when the storm was 3 days out. Ivan turned and hit Florida & Alabama, undermining official credibility and costing the city and state millions of dollars.

A few days before the storm, Governor Blanco activate the NG units in the projected strike zone only. Those units were all rendered ineffective by the flood which destroyed much of the comm gear and emergency supplies. Blanco also refused to federalize the disaster until the day the storm hit. In a "normal" disaster it takes a couple of days just to spin-up the NG. This disaster area was the size of England and destruction was nearly total. Once Blanco federalized the response, it too the federal gov's quickest military response units (elements of the 82nd Airborne) 2 days to get their advance team on the ground and another 2 days to get effective units on the ground. It took the NG 3 days (after Katrina) to get mobilized throughout the state and moving into NOLA. They were not spun-up in advance because the governor thought the units in the impact area could handle the disaster and then get relieved as units from around teh state were activated in rotation.

So guess who picked-up the slack? First, USCG did a freaking amazing job. Even more amazing is that none of those sailors got severely injured despite the extraordinary danger and fatigue. Then there was LA DWF -- they showed-up in convoys with small boats and trained drivers. Also there was TXPW, in dozens of airboats. And a few uninvited federal agencies that had boats and willing volunteers and administrators who (mostly illegally) diverted funds from mandated projects to supporting relief efforts.

Now if any of you political geniuses can make a case for laying all of the blame on any particular person or party, you're a fucking genius.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #59 of 146 (permalink) Old 07-31-2007, 02:50 PM
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Now if any of you political geniuses can make a case for laying all of the blame on any particular person or party, you're a fucking genius.

B
Have no fear the spin masters will try..............

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
Bruce R. is offline  
post #60 of 146 (permalink) Old 07-31-2007, 07:29 PM
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The USACE has been saying since the mid-1980's that the levees would fail in a category 3-4 storm. The state was given millions of dollars of pass-through money to maintain the levees. The money was handed-out in the time-honored tradition of political patronage through a network of interlocking "levee boards". Interviews and records reveal that few board members were engineers and most of them didn't even conduct the inspections that they received money to conduct. The USACE knew about this graft and public failure and did nothing.

The Congress and Administration, in their great wisdom and deliberations following 9/11, passed legislation creating Homeland Security and moved FEMA into that department, making it's funding dependent on undersecretaries' deliberations. It also forced FEMA to create a bureaucracy just to deal with it's sister agencies. The Adminstration further crippled the organization by putting a political hack in charge of the agency.

During these growing pains in DHS, Katrina hit a city known for political corruption and incompetence run by a mayor who was unpopular with his Democrat Party bosses and the Democrat governor. The mayor and gov had not spoken in months. For 1994's Hurricane Ivan which was tracking to hit NOLA, Mayor Nagin ordered an evacuation when the storm was 3 days out. Ivan turned and hit Florida & Alabama, undermining official credibility and costing the city and state millions of dollars.

A few days before the storm, Governor Blanco activate the NG units in the projected strike zone only. Those units were all rendered ineffective by the flood which destroyed much of the comm gear and emergency supplies. Blanco also refused to federalize the disaster until the day the storm hit. In a "normal" disaster it takes a couple of days just to spin-up the NG. This disaster area was the size of England and destruction was nearly total. Once Blanco federalized the response, it too the federal gov's quickest military response units (elements of the 82nd Airborne) 2 days to get their advance team on the ground and another 2 days to get effective units on the ground. It took the NG 3 days (after Katrina) to get mobilized throughout the state and moving into NOLA. They were not spun-up in advance because the governor thought the units in the impact area could handle the disaster and then get relieved as units from around teh state were activated in rotation.

So guess who picked-up the slack? First, USCG did a freaking amazing job. Even more amazing is that none of those sailors got severely injured despite the extraordinary danger and fatigue. Then there was LA DWF -- they showed-up in convoys with small boats and trained drivers. Also there was TXPW, in dozens of airboats. And a few uninvited federal agencies that had boats and willing volunteers and administrators who (mostly illegally) diverted funds from mandated projects to supporting relief efforts.

Now if any of you political geniuses can make a case for laying all of the blame on any particular person or party, you're a fucking genius.

B
Oh yeah, the whole affair is just a boiling, roiling vat of evil witches brew that no one could be held responsible for, right Bot? More faithful service to your Master, I am sure he appreciates it, along with Condi "no one could have known" Rice.

Katrina was a natural disaster that was made worse by the fumbling and bumbling of Nagin, Blanco and Bush before landfall, during the event, and afterwards. The long term aftermath of Katrina and what continues two years later is an utter failure of FEMA to administer the recovery operations they have been tasked with and funded to oversee, and the lack of any real attention by the President on the poor performance of the agency.

"No one could have known the levees would fail" was just a classic line, demonstrating how easily confused this administration gets by any kind of demand for performance, and it is the standard excuse - a plea to lower the bar to something below the skill and capability of the lowest level of performance expectations Americans might have for a burger flipper at the local Jack-In-The-Box and excuse their failures. I see you find this a perfectly acceptable course of action. I don't. Jim
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