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post #41 of 112 (permalink) Old 07-21-2007, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprof
Dream on, you really think that the rest of America is armed to the teeth? Your redneck attitude sounds good for rednecks and that's about it. I got guns too but if the FBI or some other agency are storming my property I am going to think of my children first so we can put up a fight while alive
Maybe that is your problem, you’re not willing to die for your beliefs, but your perfectly willing to let others die FOR you….. That’s kind of a sad statement isn’t it? Is that what you teach as well?

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Originally Posted by drewprof
Your problem Bruce is that you think that restricting our liberties does not apply to you because you are a good ol' boy as far as the right wings are concerned and yeah I would not be surprised that your kind will be taking up arms to actually strip property from people like me under the guise of "national security" and patriotism. Remember your Nazi cousins? You will fit right in; now go to Wal-Mart they have a really good sale on brown shirts
Well you apparently haven’t a clue as to who I am and what I think, in spite of debating me for how long now?
Yes, I remember my SS cousins, and I’m quite proud of them, but not so much of everything they did. If it wasn’t for them, the Gestapo would have had my mother in a concentration camp when she went back to visit her family in 1933.
Wal-Mart isn’t where I get my brown shirts, I don’t buy Chinese. I generally get them at Brooks Bros.

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post #42 of 112 (permalink) Old 07-21-2007, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
Maybe that is your problem, you’re not willing to die for your beliefs, but your perfectly willing to let others die FOR you….. That’s kind of a sad statement isn’t it? Is that what you teach as well?


Well you apparently haven’t a clue as to who I am and what I think, in spite of debating me for how long now?
Yes, I remember my SS cousins, and I’m quite proud of them, but not so much of everything they did. If it wasn’t for them, the Gestapo would have had my mother in a concentration camp when she went back to visit her family in 1933.
Wal-Mart isn’t where I get my brown shirts, I don’t buy Chinese. I generally get them at Brooks Bros.
I did not say I was not willing to die for my country. If you read some of my posts you will find out that I am more than willing to do so if invaded by a foreign force. Having a shoot out with the FBI (in context with our discussion) is not dying for one's country, that's plain stupid. If you read what I wrote it simply stated that my property is not worth my children's life; they can have it as long as I keep my kids which means we can perpetuate and sustain a fight if there is a need for a revolution. How do you suppose to be part of a revolution if you have been exterminated in the process of eviction? Oh yeah, I forgot, you like that martyr shit maybe; are you learning from Al Qaeda or something?
What your cousins did has nothing do with you and I apologize for using them in the discussion but do you look good in a brown shirt?

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post #43 of 112 (permalink) Old 07-21-2007, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprof
I did not say I was not willing to die for my country. If you read some of my posts you will find out that I am more than willing to do so if invaded by a foreign force. Having a shootout with the FBI (in context with our discussion) is not dying for one's country, that's plain stupid. If you read what I wrote it simply stated that my property is not worth my children's life; they can have it as long as I keep my kids which means we can perpetuate and sustain a fight if there is a need for a revolution. How do you suppose to be part of a revolution if you have been exterminated in the process of eviction? Oh yeah, I forgot, you like that martyr shit maybe; are you learning from Al Qaeda or something?
So dying in a fight against someone that feels the Constitution is nothing but toilet paper isn’t defending your country? I and the framers of that Constitution must have missed something………..
The property is not important to the discussion, as it will likely be destroyed anyway. The principals of the Constitution and what it stands for is, and THAT is what the fight would be all about.
If any given POTUS can do what he wants to the citizens of this country, then the lives of your children aren’t going to be worth much anyway are they………….
I’m not real interested in being a martyr, and never have been, paraphrasing Patton: I’m not interested in dying for my country, but I am interested in having the other guy die for my country………………….

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprof
What your cousins did has nothing do with you and I apologize for using them in the discussion but do you look good in a brown shirt?
I look fine in a brown shirt, especially with a black tie…………………..

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
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post #44 of 112 (permalink) Old 07-21-2007, 10:54 AM
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I've read the original post 4 times now, and I've concluded that I dislike executive orders even more than I did prior. The usual BWOT crew expectedly have given the Bush is a sinister demon hell bent on abolishing Congress spin. However, the 5th amendment requires due process for depriving a citizen of property, due process is whatever law defines it as, and GW is using an executive order to make a law. That is wrong, has been for awhile, but this is a good example to use to examine the process of executive orders and reign them in or abolish them altogether (nothing in the COTUS on the practice, and I haven't researched to see when and why they came about, although I expect some laws passed by Congress, the EPA one comes to mind, likely gave the President a sliver of flexibility, and, as governmental things tend to do, it has grown into an unacceptable process). I think I remember the EPA one because Clinton issued some executive order that had the GOP congress in a tizzy for a brief period. I could be wrong. Don't beat me up for my historical shortcomings on executive orders.
Had the Congress made the same law, I would think the 5th would be satisfied, since they have the power to make a law and define due process. That could also be unconstitutional if someone flipped the "infamous crimes" definition at it, requiring a grand jury. The intention of making it against the law for citizens to aid the enemy is not a bad one as long as that aid is defined. And, for the original post calling for impeachment because the order is constitutionally offensive, well, there's been a buttload of laws put on the books in our history that didn't pass constitutional muster that didn't result in the conviction of the majority who passed them.
Fixing this will require a return to the requirements of the COTUS, meaning all of it. You can't let a president issue executive orders as a substitute for passing laws, not this president, and not the next one that you might like better. You can't allow unconstitutional social programs to exist, not even if they make you feel better. You've heard me before, but I'll say it again, we now have the government that the founding fathers feared. There is too much money, too much power in the federal government. Power corrupts.
The defense rests.

PS: I'm getting there, GS . . .

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post #45 of 112 (permalink) Old 07-21-2007, 10:59 AM
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^^^^
"can't allow unconstitutional social programs to exist, not even if they make you feel better"

Wait, can't we wake up until after I get my Escalade?

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post #46 of 112 (permalink) Old 07-21-2007, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprof
^^^^
"can't allow unconstitutional social programs to exist, not even if they make you feel better"

Wait, can't we wake up until after I get my Escalade?
For you, prof, I'll look the other way, but right after that it gets nipped in the bud.

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post #47 of 112 (permalink) Old 07-21-2007, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
Maybe that is your problem, you’re not willing to die for your beliefs, but your perfectly willing to let others die FOR you….. That’s kind of a sad statement isn’t it?
This is what some of us have been saying about Bush since 2003. Kinda ironic that you bring the argument full circle.

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post #48 of 112 (permalink) Old 07-21-2007, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
This is what some of us have been saying about Bush since 2003. Kinda ironic that you bring the argument full circle.
Problem is there are quite a few here that talk the talk, but are NOT willing to walk the walk......

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
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post #49 of 112 (permalink) Old 07-21-2007, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
I would add one thing that should really bother you guys: As far as I know, no President has ever recinded an executive order that was put in place by another President. Orders such as this put in place by Lincoln are STILL in effect. Think about that......
Quote:
Originally Posted by edfreeman
I've read the original post 4 times now, and I've concluded that I dislike executive orders even more than I did prior. The usual BWOT crew expectedly have given the Bush is a sinister demon hell bent on abolishing Congress spin. However, the 5th amendment requires due process for depriving a citizen of property, due process is whatever law defines it as, and GW is using an executive order to make a law. That is wrong, has been for awhile, but this is a good example to use to examine the process of executive orders and reign them in or abolish them altogether (nothing in the COTUS on the practice, and I haven't researched to see when and why they came about, although I expect some laws passed by Congress, the EPA one comes to mind, likely gave the President a sliver of flexibility, and, as governmental things tend to do, it has grown into an unacceptable process). I think I remember the EPA one because Clinton issued some executive order that had the GOP congress in a tizzy for a brief period. I could be wrong. Don't beat me up for my historical shortcomings on executive orders.
Had the Congress made the same law, I would think the 5th would be satisfied, since they have the power to make a law and define due process. That could also be unconstitutional if someone flipped the "infamous crimes" definition at it, requiring a grand jury. The intention of making it against the law for citizens to aid the enemy is not a bad one as long as that aid is defined. And, for the original post calling for impeachment because the order is constitutionally offensive, well, there's been a buttload of laws put on the books in our history that didn't pass constitutional muster that didn't result in the conviction of the majority who passed them.
Fixing this will require a return to the requirements of the COTUS, meaning all of it. You can't let a president issue executive orders as a substitute for passing laws, not this president, and not the next one that you might like better. You can't allow unconstitutional social programs to exist, not even if they make you feel better. You've heard me before, but I'll say it again, we now have the government that the founding fathers feared. There is too much money, too much power in the federal government. Power corrupts.
The defense rests.

PS: I'm getting there, GS . . .
Both you guys are right on the money from where I'm sitting.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #50 of 112 (permalink) Old 07-21-2007, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
Problem is there are quite a few here that talk the talk, but are NOT willing to walk the walk......
By that, if you mean "going down with guns blazing" a la David Koresh in Waco, then you might be more or less on your own....

But, (arguendo) if the 5th Amendment is going by the wayside, who is to say the others, including the SECOND, might not be at risk, also? Driven by an Administration playing on a fear crazed electorate?

I would rather see the impeachment conviction and removal of Bush/Cheney than the apocalyptic nightmare scenario you outlined.

Truly, I wish you no ill will whatsoever...(and I hope you are wrong about that)...
but things seem to be moving away from what was intended in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, rather quickly.

Jim
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Last edited by cascade; 07-21-2007 at 01:17 PM.
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