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post #41 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 08:32 AM
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post #42 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 08:55 AM
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always happens...

everytime anyone criticizes bush, the die-hard 29% bring up clinton/lewinsky/marc rich...

as if somehow that justifies the enormous misdeeds of this totally corrupt administration....
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post #43 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 01:01 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
Oh, 600,000 were killed by the American bombing campaign at the beginning of the war? I didn't know that.

Figures are relevant because sometimes people use figures with lots of zeroes that apparently have no basis in fact.

Zeitgeist shooting from the safety of the bleachers rather than playing on the field.

B
Do you use Twist and Shout as your personal Theme Song?

No one said, at any point, in any post that 600,000 were killed by the American bombing campaign at the beginning of the war.

But thanks for playing Mr Obtuse yet another day.

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post #44 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
Do you use Twist and Shout as your personal Theme Song?

No one said, at any point, in any post that 600,000 were killed by the American bombing campaign at the beginning of the war.

But thanks for playing Mr Obtuse yet another day.
I was following your lead, partner and it ain't to complex a step to pick-up on real quick. Here's how the step goes:

In response to my question about proximate causes of the death rate miraculously popped out of the hidden places, you said "shock and awe".

That was what the most trusted name in television news called the bombing campaign in the early days of the war.

Therefore the bombing campaign in the early days of the war was the proximate cause of 600,000 peace-loving Iraqi civilian deaths.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #45 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guru
everytime anyone criticizes bush, the die-hard 29% bring up clinton/lewinsky/marc rich...

as if somehow that justifies the enormous misdeeds of this totally corrupt administration....
...don't forget to include Whitewater
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post #46 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 11:57 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Botnst
I was following your lead, partner and it ain't to complex a step to pick-up on real quick. Here's how the step goes:

In response to my question about proximate causes of the death rate miraculously popped out of the hidden places, you said "shock and awe".
Need to get your Arthur Murray dance step cards out again and review. What I said was, at the beginning of this little silliness:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcbear post31
The WHAT answer would be Shock and Awe, its aftermath of wounded without hospitals [also Shock and Awed], Civil War, Car Bombs, IEDs, the occasional Daisy Cutter [MOAB in current terms], air strikes going after #2 and hitting all his neighbors, Abu Grab, rape and burning of witnesses and the occasional accidental discharge.
Note the subtle difference between the Singular [S&A] and the Series [which contains 10 series elements].

So, no you didn't follow my lead. Had you followed MY lead you would have understood the 500,000+ have been killed over the course of the 4+ years in a variety of causes [the answer to your original question of who killed these people] by a variety of people. But you chose to obfuscate and run down the UN and Human Rights Commission numbers. Whatever.

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post #47 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 12:00 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pcunningham42
...don't forget to include Whitewater
With the exception of the four rafters killed in the rapids two years ago how many folks died with Whitewater?

And can you articulate how much of Whitewater was Real, Proven Fact and how much was Rumor and Media Churn?

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post #48 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
Need to get your Arthur Murray dance step cards out again and review. What I said was, at the beginning of this little silliness:


Note the subtle difference between the Singular [S&A] and the Series [which contains 10 series elements].

So, no you didn't follow my lead. Had you followed MY lead you would have understood the 500,000+ have been killed over the course of the 4+ years in a variety of causes [the answer to your original question of who killed these people] by a variety of people. But you chose to obfuscate and run down the UN and Human Rights Commission numbers. Whatever.
So, ... .even though these happened sequentially through time in some cases and parallel in others; and even if they have different origins, they are all STILL proximate causes?

Nice pirouette!

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #49 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 12:12 PM
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post #50 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-12-2007, 12:44 PM Thread Starter
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So, ... .even though these happened sequentially through time in some cases and parallel in others; and even if they have different origins, they are all STILL proximate causes?

Nice pirouette!

B
Well, unless you have a better definition of Proximate Cause than Lexus Nexus and the cut and paste to Wiki:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikepedia
In the law, a proximate cause is an event sufficiently related to a legally recognizable injury to be held the cause of that injury. There are two types of causation in the law, cause-in-fact and proximate (or legal) cause. Cause-in-fact is determined by the "but-for" test: but for the action, the result would not have happened. For example, but for running the red light, the collision would not have occurred. For an act to cause a harm, both tests must be met; proximate cause is a legal limitation on cause-in-fact.
The number used by the UN and the Human Rights Commission counts Violent deaths [non combatants only], and is spread over 54 months, each death would still count individually so I believe that YES, they all would fall under your definition.

So whether we use the massive numbers from the first few months during the Shock and Awe phase or the weekly IED civilian deaths, very few [but still counted] rape/murders by US troops, or the Surge hunts for #2 collateral damage deaths, they fall into the Violent Deaths, caused by WAR activities.

I am curious as to why, when even our fumbling Administration has accepted the UN numbers [the 500,000+ civilians killed] since Tony Snow used it as a reference two weeks ago to say that: paraphrase "the 500,000 deaths will seem like nothing if we pull out", and it has been used on both sides of the aisle of Congress for months, that you still have a problem with its accuracy?

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