Broken Iraq? Do we fix it or leave it? - Page 8 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #71 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-08-2007, 01:41 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
FeelTheLove's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 83 Astral Silver 280 SL
Location: Planet Houston
Posts: 28,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
CONTD

This war diverted Pentagon resources from Afghanistan, where the military had a real chance to hunt down Al Qaeda’s leaders. It alienated essential allies in the war against terrorism. It drained the strength and readiness of American troops.

And it created a new front where the United States will have to continue to battle terrorist forces and enlist local allies who reject the idea of an Iraq hijacked by international terrorists. The military will need resources and bases to stanch this self- inflicted wound for the foreseeable future.

The Question of Bases

The United States could strike an agreement with the Kurds to create those bases in northeastern Iraq. Or, the Pentagon could use its bases in countries like Kuwait and Qatar, and its large naval presence in the Persian Gulf, as staging points.

There are arguments for, and against, both options. Leaving troops in Iraq might make it too easy — and too tempting — to get drawn back into the civil war and confirm suspicions that Washington’s real goal was to secure permanent bases in Iraq. Mounting attacks from other countries could endanger those nations’ governments.

The White House should make this choice after consultation with Congress and the other countries in the region, whose opinions the Bush administration has essentially ignored. The bottom line: the Pentagon needs enough force to stage effective raids and airstrikes against terrorist forces in Iraq, but not enough to resume large-scale combat.

The Civil War

One of Mr. Bush’s arguments against withdrawal is that it would lead to civil war. That war is raging, right now, and it may take years to burn out. Iraq may fragment into separate Kurdish, Sunni and Shiite republics, and American troops are not going to stop that from happening.

It is possible, we suppose, that announcing a firm withdrawal date might finally focus Iraq’s political leaders and neighboring governments on reality. Ideally, it could spur Iraqi politicians to take the steps toward national reconciliation that they have endlessly discussed but refused to act on.

But it is foolish to count on that, as some Democratic proponents of withdrawal have done. The administration should use whatever leverage it gains from withdrawing to press its allies and Iraq’s neighbors to help achieve a negotiated solution.

Iraq’s leaders — knowing that they can no longer rely on the Americans to guarantee their survival — might be more open to compromise, perhaps to a Bosnian-style partition, with economic resources fairly shared but with millions of Iraqis forced to relocate. That would be better than the slow-motion ethnic and religious cleansing that has contributed to driving one in seven Iraqis from their homes.

The United States military cannot solve the problem. Congress and the White House must lead an international attempt at a negotiated outcome. To start, Washington must turn to the United Nations, which Mr. Bush spurned and ridiculed as a preface to war.

The Human Crisis

There are already nearly two million Iraqi refugees, mostly in Syria and Jordan, and nearly two million more Iraqis who have been displaced within their country. Without the active cooperation of all six countries bordering Iraq — Turkey, Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Syria — and the help of other nations, this disaster could get worse. Beyond the suffering, massive flows of refugees — some with ethnic and political resentments — could spread Iraq’s conflict far beyond Iraq’s borders.

Kuwait and Saudi Arabia must share the burden of hosting refugees. Jordan and Syria, now nearly overwhelmed with refugees, need more international help. That, of course, means money. The nations of Europe and Asia have a stake and should contribute. The United States will have to pay a large share of the costs, but should also lead international efforts, perhaps a donors’ conference, to raise money for the refugee crisis.

Washington also has to mend fences with allies. There are new governments in Britain, France and Germany that did not participate in the fight over starting this war and are eager to get beyond it. But that will still require a measure of humility and a commitment to multilateral action that this administration has never shown. And, however angry they were with President Bush for creating this mess, those nations should see that they cannot walk away from the consequences. To put it baldly, terrorism and oil make it impossible to ignore.

The United States has the greatest responsibilities, including the admission of many more refugees for permanent resettlement. The most compelling obligation is to the tens of thousands of Iraqis of courage and good will — translators, embassy employees, reconstruction workers — whose lives will be in danger because they believed the promises and cooperated with the Americans.

The Neighbors

One of the trickiest tasks will be avoiding excessive meddling in Iraq by its neighbors — America’s friends as well as its adversaries.

Just as Iran should come under international pressure to allow Shiites in southern Iraq to develop their own independent future, Washington must help persuade Sunni powers like Syria not to intervene on behalf of Sunni Iraqis. Turkey must be kept from sending troops into Kurdish territories.

For this effort to have any remote chance, Mr. Bush must drop his resistance to talking with both Iran and Syria. Britain, France, Russia, China and other nations with influence have a responsibility to help. Civil war in Iraq is a threat to everyone, especially if it spills across Iraq’s borders.



President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have used demagoguery and fear to quell Americans’ demands for an end to this war. They say withdrawing will create bloodshed and chaos and encourage terrorists. Actually, all of that has already happened — the result of this unnecessary invasion and the incompetent management of this war.

This country faces a choice. We can go on allowing Mr. Bush to drag out this war without end or purpose. Or we can insist that American troops are withdrawn as quickly and safely as we can manage — with as much effort as possible to stop the chaos from spreading.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
FeelTheLove is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #72 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-08-2007, 01:49 PM
Administratoris Emeritus
 
GeeS's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 2021 SL770
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
Posts: 44,915
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 591 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadBenz94
That question is the same as asking , "Have you told your family and friends that your a homosexual(or any line that is obviously false)?"

Either way you answer it, your giving credit to a falsehood. Thats why Shane refuses to answer your question. Plain and simple.

Too I feel Shane has been trying for the last few months to give and get a different perspective on the issues that effect us and the world other than the typical left or right wing slant or lines.

Kudos to him!
A major point of the new perspective that Shane has been sharing is that we should do what ever needs doing in order to keep the oil flowing. With that in mind, can you please be more concise in regard to the above post and your condemnation of FTLs question?

Can you also elaborate on how "That question is the same as asking , "Have you told your family and friends that your a homosexual?" does not apply to Shane as well?

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
GeeS is offline  
post #73 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-08-2007, 02:32 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
FeelTheLove's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 83 Astral Silver 280 SL
Location: Planet Houston
Posts: 28,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
It is not only not some trick question, it is an important question, a question that determines what kind of society this nation is becoming. In any moral, ethical system, the idea that a nation raises it's children to be slaughtered like cattle in the pursuit of some material aim is utterly odious, and quite frankly, indefensible, which is why I have seen no response defending it. The only political philosopher of modern times who endorsed the idea was Adolf Hitler, whose theory of the National Society subsumed the very life of the individual to the greater needs of The State as defined by The Fuerhur. How is this any different? What exactly is the national security argument for our staying in Iraq, a reason based in defending this country, that justifies the death of our soliders? Why has Bush continually changed his reasons whenever the political sands shifted beneath him? Why is anyone trusting a man with the lives of our soldiers when he is has been making up the reason for their dying as he goes along? I think it is obvious - he knows it is politically impossible to have this war if it is just called what it is - no different from Hilter's wars. A war whose modus operandi is to secure our oil by killing our own children for it. Botnst has supported it, now Shane has jumped on. What is happening to us? Have we become fascists? Animals who drink the blood of our kids?

In The United States, the very basis of our Constitutional system is the idea of individual worth, individual rights, individual conscience being penultimate. The State is seen as a necessary evil, needed but not to be trusted. Are we changing that? And now, instead of supporting our national ideals, we are exhorted to "support the troops", the phrase that keeps destroying political accountability for this coward - is that what we are now, those who will support a Wehrmact? Are we now to say we should draft young men, and then deprive them of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, rights we are all supposed to share equally, so that others in our society can exercise their right to happiness by filling up their fucking SUV? Just think, if we paid 160,000 men 150 billion fucking dollars a year to turn coal into diesel, to build sun-powered generators, nuclear power plants, geo-thermal wells, wind powered turbines, would anyone's son have to die?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 07-08-2007 at 02:46 PM.
FeelTheLove is offline  
post #74 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-08-2007, 02:52 PM
DP
Moderator
 
DP's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 190E, 400E, SLK350
Location: Chesapeak Bay
Posts: 64,125
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 991 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
...and trillions we could have used to reform our education system

DP is offline  
post #75 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-08-2007, 03:22 PM
Designo_E320
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Thumbs down

When this cowboy punk wanted to Invade Iraq, the whole world told him not to do it. The whole world said that the regional countries should be given a chance to work things out. BUT NO! Cowboy wanted to and went at it alone. "MISSION ACOMPLISHED!" (What a Texan buffalo fuck) What makes them think that these countries would get involved now? America did it, let it fix it. Why would any other country spend 100s of millions of dollars and their resources to clean up America's mess now when this Idiot did not even give them any respect then and completely ignored all other countries. Serves us right now that all other countries are pretty much ignoring us now in the time of our need. You see, this is a side effect of this idiot's policy. We are no longer taken seriously and we have NO RESPECT in the eyes of the international community. Hope all the republicunts are real happy History will not be kind and this war and the effort will be ANOTHER failure listed on the American score board. In Vietnam we came home like dogs with our tails stuck in between our legs. Looks like we will do the same again. This is sad and despicable.
post #76 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-08-2007, 03:28 PM
Designo_E320
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove

The Human Crisis

There are already nearly two million Iraqi refugees, mostly in Syria and Jordan, and nearly two million more Iraqis who have been displaced within their country. Without the active cooperation of all six countries bordering Iraq — Turkey, Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Syria — and the help of other nations, this disaster could get worse. Beyond the suffering, massive flows of refugees — some with ethnic and political resentments — could spread Iraq’s conflict far beyond Iraq’s borders.

Kuwait and Saudi Arabia must share the burden of hosting refugees. Jordan and Syria, now nearly overwhelmed with refugees, need more international help. That, of course, means money. The nations of Europe and Asia have a stake and should contribute. The United States will have to pay a large share of the costs, but should also lead international efforts, perhaps a donors’ conference, to raise money for the refugee crisis.

.
Here's a thought, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia as well as Jordan and Syria need not DO SHIT! ALL OF THIS WAR'S REFUGEES SHOULD BE GIVEN ASYLUM IN THE UNITED STATES.
post #77 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-08-2007, 03:33 PM
Designo_E320
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprof
...and trillions we could have used to reform our education system
I have ALWAYS said that. Our next generation is failing and they are very much behind. Who will run this country? I guess we will have to hire people from abroad and get them here on H1-b visas.
post #78 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-08-2007, 03:41 PM
Designo_E320
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
The only way to stop the war is to freeze the funding immediately. This will cause casualties on our side but this will also make the withdrawal quicker. It is a shame that our troops are dying for NO CAUSE whatsoever. There is absolutely No ethical or moral cause or reason for the illegal war and illegal occupation so their deaths are in vain IMO. They might do heroic things for their own over there and may save a life of a few civilians. The fact remains, they are the aggressors and so therefore "target practice" on them is justified as far as the Iraqis are concerned. They are on an unethical and illegal mission. They are dying in disgrace. Pisses me off.
post #79 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-08-2007, 05:22 PM
Always Remembered RIP
 
cascade's Avatar
 
Date registered: Nov 2006
Vehicle: 1991 560SEC AMG
Location: Grass Valley, N. Calif. / Gardnerville, Nevada
Posts: 10,146
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to cascade
Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Designo_E320
Here's a thought, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia as well as Jordan and Syria need not DO SHIT! ALL OF THIS WAR'S REFUGEES SHOULD BE GIVEN ASYLUM IN THE UNITED STATES.
Dear Designo:

N.I.M.B.Y.!!!!!!!

Thank you.

Sincerely,
The United States of America.

Jim
<--- superschnelle 300 hp 10:1 ECE euro HV, Hochverdichtung = high compression (11/2011) ... Wie im Freien Fall. Nur horizontal.


"I swear to god, it's like I live in a trailer of common sense, and stare out the window at a tornado of stupidity." >'='<
cascade is offline  
post #80 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-08-2007, 05:27 PM
Always Remembered RIP
 
cascade's Avatar
 
Date registered: Nov 2006
Vehicle: 1991 560SEC AMG
Location: Grass Valley, N. Calif. / Gardnerville, Nevada
Posts: 10,146
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to cascade
Yep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Designo_E320
The only way to stop the war is to freeze the funding immediately.
Unfortunately and ENTIRELY and absolutely correct.

At this point, it is crystal clear that is the ONLY remaining way to get Bush's and Cheney's attention.
Time to take the gloves off.

To roughly quote Hunter Thompson, if the war is wrong, then it is difficult to ignore the logic that says it is therefore wrong to fight it.

Jim
<--- superschnelle 300 hp 10:1 ECE euro HV, Hochverdichtung = high compression (11/2011) ... Wie im Freien Fall. Nur horizontal.


"I swear to god, it's like I live in a trailer of common sense, and stare out the window at a tornado of stupidity." >'='<

Last edited by cascade; 07-08-2007 at 05:31 PM.
cascade is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Mercedes-Benz Forums > Off-Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  • Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
     
    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page
    Display Modes
    Linear Mode Linear Mode



    Similar Threads
    Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
    Cleric's followers may leave Iraq gov't Jakarta Expat Off-Topic 29 04-16-2007 03:10 PM
    Nlow exactly how do we split up Iraq after the American pigs leave..... Jakarta Expat Off-Topic 14 02-19-2007 02:47 PM
    Help! Leave it Or Fix it! Morpheus W124 E,CE,D,TD Class 4 01-26-2007 06:37 AM
    Iran tells Talabani that US-led forces must leave Iraq Jakarta Expat Off-Topic 4 11-28-2006 02:49 PM
    Should I let the dealer fix this or just leave it alone.... ? Please help me decide. (more) Dan - SF Bay Area R170 SLK-Class 4 09-06-2001 02:01 PM

    Posting Rules  
    You may post new threads
    You may post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are On
    Pingbacks are On
    Refbacks are On

     

    Title goes here

    close
    video goes here
    description goes here. Read Full Story
    For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome