Broken Iraq? Do we fix it or leave it? - Page 6 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #51 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-06-2007, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst

In a sense, I believe that some folks over-state the Iranian problem. True, they share a religious denomination with the majority population. However, the Iraqi Shiites are ethnic Arabs for the most part, not Persians. So if the "strongman" can appeal to ethnicity and nationality over religion he might pull it off.

But he cannot totally appeal strictly to ethnicity because the Kurds and other minorities would then be threatened.

In my opinion, your role is to give Iraq a "breathing space" so that they can build confidence in their civil government. The question us taxpayers are struggling with his how much "breathing space" we can afford to provide for Iraq.

Just from watching the ebb and flow on this website I can't believe that taxpayers have the patience for more than another few months without some extraordinary improvement in the perception of events in Iraq. If there are improvements, even weak ones, that politicians can use for cover, then the forces may stay on the ground and in force for another year. But patience is wearing thin and the country is in the mood to capitulate, declare victory, and bring everybody home.

B
I disagree with the role of Iran being overstated. The figurehead of the Iranian revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini spent 14 years of exile in Iraq, in the for Shiites holy city of Najaf.
First the dilettante Jimmy Carter pulls the rug out from under the Shah, and should bear responsibility for a large part of the mess we are dealing with today. Then the dilettante G.W. Bush spends $ 440+ billion, with 3,500+ U.S. soldiers death, and 26,000+ wounded, only to have a large part of Iraq under Iranian control. What brilliant leadership.
Interesting that the American public has not yet demanded changes to a system, that makes it possible for mediocre leaders like J. Carter or G.W. Bush to attain the highest office of the Country.
Following Paris Hilton's every move seems to be more important.
I hope it isn't true that sometimes a Country gets the leader it deserves.

IMOP, at this late stage they should have hired the proven bastard Saddam Hussein instead of executing him.
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post #52 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-07-2007, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by James_Van_Thach
Punjabi,

I am not expressing my choice to install a dictator in Iraq.




I am providing information that has been relayed to me by Iraqis since when I was working as an Advisor to the Iraqi Army from Iraqi Officers, Iraqi Interpreters that mention an alternative to their government that resembles Jordan and Britain under a Constitutional Monarchy. They have stated that members of their families and communities hold the royal family of Iraq in high regards and would support him.

The people may just choose to have a King conduct the same responsibilities as the Emperor of Japan as a figurehead to unite the people, historical heritage and a person that is a diplomat and Ambassador of the people.

I can only speak from my experience in the community where I use to work with the Iraqi Army on a daily basis for 12 months living on an Iraqi Army base. I will continue to do my job here in Iraq and keep hope that the Iraqi people that chose a democracy of any form of their wish and that the Iraqi politicians can settle their political debates that will stabilize the country.


Respectfully,

James Van Thach

Sorry.....don't buy it! heh, heh......You FAIL to understand the Iraqi culture, people and their ethos, especially under this climate of illegal occupation of their Country and the looting of their their VALUABLE natural resource....OIL!

Those mere few Iraqi army jokers you may have spoken to are not the REPRESENTATIVE PEOPLE of the Country which you continue to loot and occupy illegally! These jokers will tell you what YOU want to hear, not what they THINK! heh, heh...

Also, like a true hypocritical POLITICIAN, you have chosen to ignore my queries on the issues of Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan!?!....heh, heh..... respectfully!
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post #53 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-07-2007, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Punjabi
Sorry.....don't buy it! heh, heh......You FAIL to understand the Iraqi culture, people and their ethos, especially under this climate of illegal occupation of their Country and the looting of their their VALUABLE natural resource....OIL!

Those mere few Iraqi army jokers you may have spoken to are not the REPRESENTATIVE PEOPLE of the Country which you continue to loot and occupy illegally! These jokers will tell you what YOU want to hear, not what they THINK! heh, heh...

Also, like a true hypocritical POLITICIAN, you have chosen to ignore my queries on the issues of Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan!?!....heh, heh..... respectfully!
The man is obviously well-read and educated. He is on the ground and also connected to the world outside. He has clearly articulated his argument and defended it with logic and in a respectful manner.

In contrast, we have you.

Rather than simply tear-down the ideas and insult those whom dare to think and work, demonstrate your hidden insights that we may learn from your knowledge and reason.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #54 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-07-2007, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Teutone
I disagree with the role of Iran being overstated. The figurehead of the Iranian revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini spent 14 years of exile in Iraq, in the for Shiites holy city of Najaf. ...
You sure as heck have more insight into the character of the people involved. On that if nothing else, I defer to your opinion. All I have is what I read and the people I know: two Persians and some Arabs.

From the outside it looks like the Iraqi Shiite community is split (along many lines of fracture) roughly between those with whom the Iranians have close ties and those with whom the Iranians do not have close ties. If Iraq is to have peace in the Shia community the Iraqi nationalists and the Persian sympathizers will have to reach accommodation. At the present time it is mainly the coalition forces that are the focus of both groups. When we leave I have no doubt, unless there is a trusted government in-place, that these communities will go at each other, hammer and tong.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #55 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-07-2007, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
The man is obviously well-read and educated. He is on the ground and also connected to the world outside. He has clearly articulated his argument and defended it with logic and in a respectful manner.

In contrast, we have you.

Rather than simply tear-down the ideas and insult those whom dare to think and work, demonstrate your hidden insights that we may learn from your knowledge and reason.
x10

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #56 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-07-2007, 08:40 AM
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Please give us your reasons why you think a "trusted government" will ever appear.

The threat from Iran is not overstated in the case of Iraq. The spiritual leader of all Iraqi Shiites, Sistani, does not even speak Arabic, he speaks Persian. The Shiite militias, all of them, are financed and armed, and probably trained by Iran.

One must try to understand what has really happened: the force of cohesion in the Arab world was Baathism. It united Sunni, Shiite and Christian Arabs, and was the force that kept Iraq together. The force for disunity is Islam. This is the force we strenghtened. Islam is a multi-national multi-ethnic force divided by sect. Those who control the weapons and the propaganda of Islamicism have two clear goals: if they are Sunni, they seek a Sunni superstate. If they are Shiite, they seek a Shiite superstate. In this equation, the followers care little who is "Arab" and who is "Persian", and for you to even state that shows how little you understand of the nature of Islam itself.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #57 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-07-2007, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by maine_coon
Captain James_Van_Thach, Sir.

You are more qualified than any of us no question about this.

If Iraq can be ruled by the King the same way Jordan is ruled, that is perfectly OK with me.

So we did not bring a democracy, we brought a king instead.

Once again, that's fine.

But won't we have the Iran story before long so we either have to betray our King (as we did to the Shakh of Iran) or redeploy everything in much less favorable conditions?
We NEVER went in there to setup a democracy. We went in there b/c of 9-11 and WMDs. What a short attentions span/memories the American public has!

Here are some of the reasons we went to war that kept on changining as time passed.....
1. 9-11
2. WMDs
3. To liberate the Iraqi people from a mad- man
4. To setup a democratic gov't

Blah- blah-blah............BULLSHIT!

Real reasons:
War was already planned and finalized BEFORE 9-11 for following reasons:
1. Revenge for daddy
2. OIL
3. OIL
4. OIL
5. OIL
6. Setup a puppet government that would bend over for America.

Cost:
1. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians killed.
2. 3500+ US soldiers killed in vain without an honorable cause.
3. Millions of Iraqis displaced
4. Severely tainted the image of USA in the eyes of every country of the world.
5. Breeding of more terrorists.
6. Made America more unsafe.
7. American living in fear everyday
8. America spending Billions every years now to protect itself for a possibility of a terrorist attack which may happen anyways.
9. Creating a next generation of leaders in the Arab/Islamic world that will NOT be very kind to USA as far as trade and oil.

I could go on and on but you get the point.........
post #58 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-07-2007, 09:03 AM
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Designo, I never said we went there to bring democracy.

It was supposed to be a "side effect" of the invasion.

And I would like to see this OIL coming to a pump near me.

If you get more oil, you don't pay twice the price for the gas, no?
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post #59 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-07-2007, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by maine_coon
Designo, I never said we went there to bring democracy.

It was supposed to be a "side effect" of the invasion.
Democracy, side effect? These 2 terms didn't even come into existance until a couple of years into the war. These terms came into play slowly over time when slowly the "reasons" for invasion started to change over time as stated above. This is the way to BRAIN WASH a society. "Hitler tactics", I call them.
Ask anyone on the street why we are in Iraq, they will say "fight against terror" as this phrase is the latest that the president has been barking and the media is repeating over and over again. Ask anyone what our real primary reasons for going into war were, noone will remember!

Hitler said something to the tune of, and I do have an exact quote right now, "How great it is for the leaders that the people of their country do not think for themselves." If someone has the exact quote, please post it. We RECENTLY started talking about the so called"side effects" to "justify" our dirty and immoral deeds my friend.
post #60 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-07-2007, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by maine_coon
Designo, I never said we went there to bring democracy.

It was supposed to be a "side effect" of the invasion.

And I would like to see this OIL coming to a pump near me.

If you get more oil, you don't pay twice the price for the gas, no?
We didn't get the OIL because we underestimated the insurgents and the Iraqis. They started to destroy the pipelines, etc to there were disruptions. We just didn't get what we went after because they would rather destroy then give it to the US. Just because we went in there thinking that we could easily take over their natural resources doesn't mean that we would have automatically been successful. I am glad we didn't get that oil and I hope we never do. So actually with the disruption of oil, we actually started getting less and now we pay more. Serves us right IMO.
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