Broken Iraq? Do we fix it or leave it? - Page 3 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #21 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-06-2007, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
And how exactly would you control these states? Occupy them?
No, not military action. We would give the governments a deadline to get rid of these people, Iran obviously exempt. If they fail to meet that deadline we freeze all assets, strangle them financially.

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post #22 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-06-2007, 07:04 AM
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Well, that used to work, but in the new world we live in, they have lots of alternative markets. They will sell their oil to China and buy their weapons from the Russians. Just look at Chavez, that is exactly what he is doing to rid VZ of us and our economic tyranny over them. If we invade and occupy Islamic countries, we will simply have a huge version of Iraq. The real solution is to do whatever we can to help the forces of change in these societies, even if these changes cost the oil companies money.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #23 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-06-2007, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by James_Van_Thach
Shane,

I have conversed this subject in a prior topic and since living here in Iraq for 15 months in Baghdad there is only one solution.

The solution is for an Iraqi that can win the support of the people through Justice and Compassion. I believe that a good candidate would be Sharif Ali bin al-Hussein and he has support that is growing in the nation from Iraqis people that I have spoken to and have viewed him on Iraqi news channels on his objectives and goals for the people and nation of Iraq.

Sharif Ali bin al-Hussein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe that an Iraqi with the same attributes of a Nelson Mandela is needed in Iraq to bring peace to a nation that has alot of history of discrimination that led to thousands of people in jails or killed.

Until an Iraqi wins the support and is able to reconcile the past wrongs that were done in the nation through dialogue of reconciliation the problems that are occurring here will remain the same or potentially may decline.

My solution is posted here: http://www.benzworld.org/forums/off-...ames_Van_Thach

Respectfully,

James Van Thach
I can't believe that you are still pushing for a Hashemite king to take up an Iraqi throne. Right or wrong for the Iraqis it is still not your call especially from a military Captain that can be very influential. Did he promise you a post like head of his future royal guard?
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post #24 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-06-2007, 08:23 AM
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^^^
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post #25 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-06-2007, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Shane
Where do you fall on this hotly contested subject. Maybe the right can elaborate on why they think we should stay for more reasons than blind patriotism. Maybe the left can drop the single minded arrogance and give logical options and reasons other than you are with us or against us. Come on, there are some well informed people on this board, lets hear some options and not insults since no one is guaranteed to be correct.

I'll start. We broke it, we need to fix it. We should maintain heavily guarded posts and set up a timeline of withdrawl based on achieved goals. It should not have started but we are responsible and the region is very important to us and the rest of the world.
Shane,

If you are going to start something you hope leads to a serious debate, how about offering something with substance to back up your cliche'-based "we broke it, we need to fix it" philosophy?

What do you mean by the statement "We should maintain heavily guarded posts and set up a timeline of withdrawal based on achieved goals" above?

Do we add troops or take them away or rearrange the ones we already have there? What is the timeline based on? What if the timeline, like the Bush time line to date, expires and the goals are not achieved? More importantly, what are the goals that are to be achieved that you are proposing?

Without some definition of what you are proposing it is just a bunch of soft goo that can be used to justify whatever you might like it to justify. While Bot seems hung up on "fuckity fuck fuck fuck" the target of his tirade is the only one who has offered any detail in what is to be done, in his opinion, and why. All the rest of the one liners, or repetitive one liners, are old and incomplete thoughts. Can't start a serious debate with little more than clauses and phrases. Whole thoughts.

The easiest whole thought to express accurately and completely is "cut and run." Which is what I would recommend. We, hopefully, didn't intend to break Iraq (although an argument that "we are fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" reveals breaking and ruining Iraq was part of the original plan) so it seems our best intentions for going on five years has done nothing but make the situation worse. More and better trained terrorists, new tactics, new weapons, and a pan-Arab, pan-Middle East and pan-Islam hatred of America has resulted. We obviously have not got a clue how to "fix" this and, therefore, we should get the hell out as soon as possible. Once the Iraqis figure out what they want to do, we should offer financial and other humanitarian and rebuilding aid to make reparations. But get out military the hell out of there, entirely. Now.

Jim
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post #26 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-06-2007, 08:52 AM
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Well, WE are the criminals here. We KILLED THEM, when they did not have anything to do with 9-11. We have raped them, murdered them and WE CREATED the environment in which the Iraqi's must live. We are the ones who got all the terrorists into that country in the first place. It was due to OUR actions that the insurgency happened in the first place. We broke it but we cannot fix it. The only thing we can do is to LEAVE and let things take its course and WE SHOULD be responsible for payments to Iraq up to our asses. Every Iraqi who wants to immigrate here should now have A RIGHT to do so since we completely destroyed that nation and now THEY have to live with the insurgents that WE INVITED there. If we have to let 15 million Iraqis come here then let it be. Of course after severe and extensive back ground checks. Instead of spending 100s of Billions of dollars on the illegal war and illegal occupation, this money should be paid out to individual Iraqis for us being responsible for hundreds of thousand of their people (family members) killed. After we do all of this, even all this would still not be enough! Bush and all of his cronies should be jailed for crimes against humanity and war crimes as I do not believe that we should have immunity even if IT IS INFACT the president of the United States. Maybe it will restore some honor for the White House and for what it stands.

What if a country came in to USA, and invaded us illegally and this invited all sorts of criminals into it and our country became a battle ground for a complete lie? What if due to that country's actions your kids were killed and daughters were raped? I don't think any of you would be barking like you are right now. America today has done absolutely NOTHING different than Nazi Germany did just a few years ago. USA should be MADE to pay reparations!
post #27 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-06-2007, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith
Shane,

The easiest whole thought to express accurately and completely is "cut and run." Which is what I would recommend. We, hopefully, didn't intend to break Iraq (although an argument that "we are fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" reveals breaking and ruining Iraq was part of the original plan) so it seems our best intentions for going on five years has done nothing but make the situation worse. More and better trained terrorists, new tactics, new weapons, and a pan-Arab, pan-Middle East and pan-Islam hatred of America has resulted. We obviously have not got a clue how to "fix" this and, therefore, we should get the hell out as soon as possible. Once the Iraqis figure out what they want to do, we should offer financial and other humanitarian and rebuilding aid to make reparations. But get out military the hell out of there, entirely. Now.

Jim
Pretty much what I said in my previous post!
post #28 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-06-2007, 08:55 AM
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Like I said, it is all in the probablities. Let's list the probable outcomes of our current strategy, which is a centralized Iraqi government:

1) The Iraqi Government is a great success! The people love democracy! Petraeus is a genius!

2) Iraq is ungovernable by democracy due to a fatal flaw in it's Constitution

Most will agree that 2# is at this point a 94% probability because 1# is impossible due to #2 (Petraeus himself is on record as saying best odds are 70/30 against). Why is Bush continuing a flawed policy on a 6% chance Petraeus can somehow use troops to overcome what is essentially a political problem, a flaw in the Iraqi constitution that allows Iran undue influence in the political process of Iraq? In any case, now we have to for the most part, except for Koolaid drinking shitheads who are unfortunately posting here and running our military establishment, accept that #2 is true. If it is true, what are the probabilities if we accept the fact Iraq is ungovernable in its current state?

1) Withdraw from Iraq

2) Provide sufficient military man power for an alternative solution

3) Attempt a different solution with the manpower we have.

#2 is politically impossible at this point in the United States.

#3, ok genius right wing fuckity-fuckers, you tell us?

The only solution left is #1

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #29 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-06-2007, 08:57 AM
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Withdraw and give them money in proportion to what we give to Israel and let's see if they are people worthy of a nation. Is that hard?
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post #30 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-06-2007, 09:00 AM
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If we withdraw, there is no nation. The outcome is so inevitable, it is pathetic. Iran absorbs Shiite Iraq. Sunni Iraq becomes the terrorist state of Mesopotamia, a new Afghanistan or Somalia. Kurdistan becomes independent, destablizing Turkey. We will have to forget Iraq and deal with the new world as it is

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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