Broken Iraq? Do we fix it or leave it? - Page 10 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #91 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-09-2007, 06:29 AM
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Oh come on.

Seems like a glib and florid over generalization, though it for sure is a snappy and timely one.

Starting from, oh, let's say with the Munich terrorism incident with the 1972 Olympic team, how many terrorists have been identified as Medical Doctors?

You've identified a glitch. Might be a trend starting, though. Who's to say?

Jim
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post #92 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-09-2007, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
The high moral character of doctors was amply demonstrated in England & Scotland recently.
For a very intelligent guy you sometimes make the dumbest comments. Just as a criminal Zionist government of Israel does not mean that all Jews are bad or fundamentalists, the same thing applies to some rotten apples that make the whole group look bad. Very few radicals in a religion that claims 1.5 billion does not make all Muslims bad. One small sect of lawyers (personal injury especially) with their less than par practices do not make all lawyers bad. It gives the whole group a bad name.
You are talking about a profession and inserting a religious aspect into this equation. So according to your logic, Catholics are child molesters and all of their clergy is corrupt. How ignorant BOT! If this had been the high moral characters of doctors, then this nation would have been finished already. Let's see, 40% of doctors in USA are foreigners and out of those roughly 1/3 are from Muslims countries. You don't think it would be easy for these doctors to intentionally cause patent's deaths? 9-11 would be a pussy event compared to this if it happened. Bot, I may not agree with your political views but I certainly have respect for your brain. I hold you to a higher level than most. I expected better. Don't worry, I still respect you as we can all have occasional slip ups.
post #93 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-09-2007, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Designo_E320
For a very intelligent guy you sometimes make the dumbest comments. Just as a criminal Zionist government of Israel does not mean that all Jews are bad or fundamentalists, the same thing applies to some rotten apples that make the whole group look bad. Very few radicals in a religion that claims 1.5 billion does not make all Muslims bad. One small sect of lawyers (personal injury especially) with their less than par practices do not make all lawyers bad. It gives the whole group a bad name.
You are talking about a profession and inserting a religious aspect into this equation. So according to your logic, Catholics are child molesters and all of their clergy is corrupt. How ignorant BOT! If this had been the high moral characters of doctors, then this nation would have been finished already. Let's see, 40% of doctors in USA are foreigners and out of those roughly 1/3 are from Muslims countries. You don't think it would be easy for these doctors to intentionally cause patent's deaths? 9-11 would be a pussy event compared to this if it happened. Bot, I may not agree with your political views but I certainly have respect for your brain. I hold you to a higher level than most. I expected better. Don't worry, I still respect you as we can all have occasional slip ups.

Designo......I must disagree with you on a minor point.....you mention the word "brain" in your statement above......I am of the firm opinion that it is an over-statement on your part and should be edited to be replaced with the more apt word of "excrement" which is a more appropriate material present in cavity, considering the addressee of your statement ....heh, heh.....
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post #94 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-09-2007, 07:39 AM
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There is a store in Louisiana that sells glib, haughty, cynicism.

Botanst buys it by the truckload, he loves it.

That is all there is to it.

Jim
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post #95 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-09-2007, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
I think you're reading Shane wrong, Jim. The foreign policy position that Shane consistently advocates lately is that we should generally do that which is in our immediate best interest, and not concern ourselves with infuriating and alienating the rest of the world or the devastating blowback events that will ensue as a result. Thus, he appears to be giving the nod to 'cut and run' -- unless his position has shifted once again...
I am having a hard time reading Shane. The opening post for this thread didn't sound like "cut and run" and did sound like a slightly reworded Bushco non-specific, buzzword filled no-plan that once adopted could get you stuck in Iraq endlessly.

My main disagreement with Bush at this point, meaning overlooking the way he got us into this quagmire, is there is no specificity to any of his proposals. Nothing to debate, nothing to measure his word by, nothing to measure progress by, no acceptance criteria, just blathering bravado in the face of being caught in web after web of deception that amounts to asking us to trust him. After the record he has established there is just no way. Everything needs to be peeled open and debated, as it was originally intended by the Founders of this nation. Bush has abused my trust and will never be given the benefit of the doubt again, so initiatives that are relying on more blind support without debate and participation from all America's perspectives and contributions from all America's talents and capabilities are not going anywhere. No more secrecy, no more power grabbing and abuse of the Constitution.

Shane's proposal in the opening post sounded ominously similar - no specificity, nice sounding sound bites, and then a big "trust me." Not something I had come to expect from Shane, but something I have detected in several of his more recent posts - a kind of resigning from his previous outlook of challenging Bush and Co. to deliver on their promised performance or change course and adopting this "it is going to take forever and don't you worry, it will be worthwhile because we will get oil out of this" approach. I would love to hear Shane explain I have misread him. Jim
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post #96 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-09-2007, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimSmith

My main disagreement with Bush at this point, meaning overlooking the way he got us into this quagmire, is there is no specificity to any of his proposals. Nothing to debate, nothing to measure his word by, nothing to measure progress by, no acceptance criteria, just blathering bravado in the face of being caught in web after web of deception that amounts to asking us to trust him. After the record he has established there is just no way. Everything needs to be peeled open and debated, as it was originally intended by the Founders of this nation. Bush has abused my trust and will never be given the benefit of the doubt again, so initiatives that are relying on more blind support without debate and participation from all America's perspectives and contributions from all America's talents and capabilities are not going anywhere. No more secrecy, no more power grabbing and abuse of the Constitution.

Jim
You seem to be saying an in elegant way that Bush has basically lied to and abused the trust of the American people, and since he willnot stand for election, feels free to concentrate only on his "legacy" and his perceived vincdication of his policies in 50 years. His vision includes an endless occupation of Iraq as in Korea, with an enormous Embassy to underscore the commitment to that vision.
However it contains no coherent or believable or aticulable goals.

Americans are not a patient people by any means, and Bush still has demonstrated an unwillingness to listen to good counsel on foreign policy, and encouraged the hatred of Muslims worldwide, and squandered whatever good will America has gained over the last 20 years.

In furtherance of his agenda, he has along with Cheney, heaped contempt on the will of the public at large by eroding and invading Civil liberties, cynically manipulating the immigration issue for his benefit and that of the extreme right, his only constituency, and sacrificing the interest of the public at large to the moneyed corporate interests while blatantly protecting and promoting the interests of his pedrsonal friends, loyalists and cronies.

The tipping point may have occurred, as the remaing republicans except the hardcore extremists and religious right are wavering, and about to break ranks.

He is slated for the same fate as LBJ, to leave office in disgrace. His legacy is already cast as I see it, and it is not congruent as what I see it to be. He will be remembered as the worst President since Richard Nixon, or even worse,whether he is impeached or not.

I doubt the public would believe Bush or Cheney at this point, if they were told by them that Christmas came in December or the sun was going to rise tomorrow. Neither could be elected for anything, even dog catcher, now.

Their legacy will include not only the thousands of deaths and injuries and loss of treaure in Iraq, but the relentless assault on civil liberties, promotion of personal cronies, but an oren assault on the checks and balances in the very Constitution by seeking untrammelled and utterly unaccountable political executive power.

It would not surprise me that if things continue on their present course, the Republican party will be inthe next election, be swept from office in a massive landslide.

Furthermore, the actual possibility of Impeachment of Bush and Cheney could be a very possible event in the near future.

There is a dark undercurrent of anger and dissatisfaction in the electorate at large which has not made itself seen but is felt and perceived by all.

Jim
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Last edited by cascade; 07-09-2007 at 08:35 AM.
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post #97 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-09-2007, 08:56 AM
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I checked Gore's new book, "The Assault On Reason" out of a local library over the weekend and am nearly finished. Gore goes through a very orderly and relatively emotion-free dissection of the political debate process and how it has been compromised from the days of the birth of the nation to the age of radio and television, while pointing out how Bush and company have exploited the the new technology (radio and television are not forums for "debate" with the general public as they have no means to talk back, while in the early days of the nation the print media was essentially open to all those who could read and write) to preach and sell their message through the flaws of the human neural arrangement that radio/television media are readily able to exploit. The main feature, which I have been railing against since I concluded Bush lied about the WMD threat and turned against the invasion of Iraq, is the lack of debate in Congress over these dangerous policies and the constant erosion of our "inalienable" rights by Bush's administration. I highly recommend the book. It is easy to read, surprisingly, as Gore is not that easy to listen to, and it is very thorough, with lots of supporting information references. Jim
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post #98 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-09-2007, 09:29 AM
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I think FTL, hits on some good points. I had a convo about this subject with my age group and was sadden by the fact that they where mis informed. I was sadden to hear them still talking about 9-11 and not the clear and present danger we face and our kids.

We do need to leave folks. Honestly. We need to leave and approach this from a diplomatic stand point. Yes we where attacked, but we wherent just attacked here in the States, we've been attacted several times over in Africa and abroad, but no one speaks of these attacts.

We are nee deep in a pile of BUSH-SHIT. He fucked us and fucked the Iraqi's. The real solution was is to pull out regroup and focus our military might in the regions that need it. To be honest we had our own civil war, one of which needed to play it self out, with out, out side influence such as the one we present now. If we didnt have our civil war the laws of today wouldnt be what they are. We actauly didnt start the civil war, but because we are there we are being viewed in the worse manner.

I would have slowly pulled out like we had originaly planned. As far as the resources are concerned there are and should be ways to stabilize the oil and other world energies with out having a direct hand in the bloodshed.
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post #99 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-09-2007, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by slybydesignw210
I think FTL, hits on some good points. I had a convo about this subject with my age group and was sadden by the fact that they where mis informed. I was sadden to hear them still talking about 9-11 and not the clear and present danger we face and our kids.

We do need to leave folks. Honestly. We need to leave and approach this from a diplomatic stand point. Yes we where attacked, but we wherent just attacked here in the States, we've been attacted several times over in Africa and abroad, but no one speaks of these attacts.

We are nee deep in a pile of BUSH-SHIT. He fucked us and fucked the Iraqi's. The real solution was is to pull out regroup and focus our military might in the regions that need it. To be honest we had our own civil war, one of which needed to play it self out, with out, out side influence such as the one we present now. If we didnt have our civil war the laws of today wouldnt be what they are. We actauly didnt start the civil war, but because we are there we are being viewed in the worse manner.

I would have slowly pulled out like we had originaly planned. As far as the resources are concerned there are and should be ways to stabilize the oil and other world energies with out having a direct hand in the bloodshed.
The administration sold this war on Iraq as related to 911. The damage is done!
Someone asked (Bot) what had Al Qaida accomplished? Well they made Bush their mouth piece to destroy any secular country in the ME to spread their version of Islam with Bush's blessings. Did you check the "new" Iraqi constitution? Maybe Bot did and he's very happy with the outcome, why don't you ask him?
Maybe Captain James will step right in and tell us if the soldiers themselves were or were not under the "impression" that the Iraqi people were behind 911, maybe he can tell us what some of the battle cries were to get the soldiers moving forward

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post #100 of 241 (permalink) Old 07-09-2007, 09:47 AM
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The administration sold this war on Iraq as related to 911. The damage is done!
Someone asked (Bot) what had Al Qaida accomplished? Well they made Bush their mouth piece to destroy any secular country in the ME to spread their version of Islam with Bush's blessings. Did you check the "new" Iraqi constitution? Maybe Bot did and he's very happy with the outcome, why don't you ask him?
Maybe Captain James will step right in and tell us if the soldiers themselves were or were not under the "impression" that the Iraqi people were behind 911, maybe he can tell us what some of the battle cries were to get the soldiers moving forward

True indeed, One of the questions I heard during my conversation was, "Is what Bush doing realy wrong?" I swear to you, I almost lost it. I was sitting with some very sexy ladie which I was happy to hear them talk politics, but when I heard that question my gut fell to my nees. They were totaly still mis informed. True he took the right opportunity to lie, lie, lie and now he is lieing to cover up his lies, which most should land his as in Jail. I supported going after Bin-Laden. I was even confused on why we where in Iraq when we first went.
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