Did Bush commit a crime by pardoning Libby? - Page 3 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

View Poll Results: Did Bush obstruct justice by pardoning Libby?
yes 17 45.95%
no 13 35.14%
maybe 7 18.92%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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post #21 of 195 (permalink) Old 07-04-2007, 11:01 AM
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^^^ Why not give a full pardon?

I think Bush is playing judicial roulette. He doesn't believe that Libby should be jailed (for whatever reasons, not important for this point of argument). So he has taken a half-measure while Libby's case is under appeal.

Here's the gamble. If Libby wins on appeal then Bush's intervention will appear wise and prudent. Fitzgerald would then appear to have persecuted an innocent man, etc. If Libby loses on appeal then Bush will do the full pardon on Jan 19, 11PM, 2009.

In either case, Bush has lost nothing in the exchange.

Why? Because most people's attitudes toward him are locked in-place. No matter what he does a significant portion of voters wil still hate him and no matter what he does, the core Republicans will not abandon him. This commutation for Libby has merely re-warmed a few supporters who were cooling toward him and heated mightily people who hated him anyway. This is no net loss for Bush and possibly, a small gain.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

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post #22 of 195 (permalink) Old 07-04-2007, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce R.
I don't play duck and cover, I stated a fact.
The man was accused of "outing" a CIA agent.
The writer of that particular law stated Mz Plame was not what she had in mind when that law was written.
Then they tacked on an obstruction of justice charge when the Prosecution and the jury KNEW he had a "spotty" memory. Again the jury KNEW that was a fact, but they took a reporters word (a reporter who had a friend on the jury) over Libby’s. They (the jury) stated that they felt sorry for Libby but they nailed him anyway because they wanted to get to the republican leadership. This is what happens in Banana Republics, in NAZI Germany, and in the old USSR. Do you feel that comfortable with that company that you are willing to allow it to happen here? If you feel you have a beef with Bush then go after Bush and Chaney. Have the fortitude to go get the guys you feel have done you wrong, leave the little guys that haven’t done what you have accused them of alone.
Libby was accused of outing Plame, he didn’t do that did he? Armatage did. Why is no one going after him if it was such a crime ? I can tell you why, it was a fishing expedition NOT a trial.
If you want Bush, have the balls to go after him, don’t wuss out, go get him if you can………………
More duck and cover. Are you really so frightened by my point that you continue to ignore it? Were my point and my questions in post #18 too difficult?

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post #23 of 195 (permalink) Old 07-04-2007, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
I don't play duck and cover, I stated a fact.
The man was accused of "outing" a CIA agent.
The writer of that particular law stated Mz Plame was not what she had in mind when that law was written.
Then they tacked on an obstruction of justice charge when the Prosecution and the jury KNEW he had a "spotty" memory. Again the jury KNEW that was a fact, but they took a reporters word (a reporter who had a friend on the jury) over Libby’s. They (the jury) stated that they felt sorry for Libby but they nailed him anyway because they wanted to get to the republican leadership. This is what happens in Banana Republics, in NAZI Germany, and in the old USSR. Do you feel that comfortable with that company that you are willing to allow it to happen here? If you feel you have a beef with Bush then go after Bush and Chaney. Have the fortitude to go get the guys you feel have done you wrong, leave the little guys that haven’t done what you have accused them of alone.
Libby was accused of outing Plame, he didn’t do that did he? Armatage did. Why is no one going after him if it was such a crime ? I can tell you why, it was a fishing expedition NOT a trial.
If you want Bush, have the balls to go after him, don’t wuss out, go get him if you can………………
Libby was accused by the Special Prosecutor and charged with outing Plame? I don't recall that. I recall he was accused and charged only with lying and obstructing justice. Bad memory? You think he could be entrusted with all that important work by Cheney if he couldn't recall things he said and did? I think you would find a person accused of trafficking in drugs who "couldn't remember" certain incriminating events affecting his higher ups as convenient - likely to save his ass. How is it that Libby is suddenly any different? He obstructed justice by lying to the Special Prosecutor and the FBI. It was his choice and he made it to take the bullet for Cheney and Bush. Justice is still being obstructed by this man, and Bush has just publicly joined him in this effort. Jim
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post #24 of 195 (permalink) Old 07-04-2007, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
^^^ Why not give a full pardon?

I think Bush is playing judicial roulette. He doesn't believe that Libby should be jailed (for whatever reasons, not important for this point of argument). So he has taken a half-measure while Libby's case is under appeal.

Here's the gamble. If Libby wins on appeal then Bush's intervention will appear wise and prudent. Fitzgerald would then appear to have persecuted an innocent man, etc. If Libby loses on appeal then Bush will do the full pardon on Jan 19, 11PM, 2009.

In either case, Bush has lost nothing in the exchange.

Why? Because most people's attitudes toward him are locked in-place. No matter what he does a significant portion of voters wil still hate him and no matter what he does, the core Republicans will not abandon him. This commutation for Libby has merely re-warmed a few supporters who were cooling toward him and heated mightily people who hated him anyway. This is no net loss for Bush and possibly, a small gain.
Your reasoning considers Bush's action as a half-measure. It isn't, it is an extraordinary, almost unheard of action on his part. Much more conventional and acceptable to pardon him and be done with it. This is all about the pending civil trial and Bush covering the administration's behind. I would really like to see the civil trial put on hold until Jan 20, 2009 at this point. I don't suppose there's any way to pull that off, is there?

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #25 of 195 (permalink) Old 07-04-2007, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
^^^ Why not give a full pardon?

I think Bush is playing judicial roulette. He doesn't believe that Libby should be jailed (for whatever reasons, not important for this point of argument). So he has taken a half-measure while Libby's case is under appeal.

Here's the gamble. If Libby wins on appeal then Bush's intervention will appear wise and prudent. Fitzgerald would then appear to have persecuted an innocent man, etc. If Libby loses on appeal then Bush will do the full pardon on Jan 19, 11PM, 2009.

In either case, Bush has lost nothing in the exchange.

Why? Because most people's attitudes toward him are locked in-place. No matter what he does a significant portion of voters wil still hate him and no matter what he does, the core Republicans will not abandon him. This commutation for Libby has merely re-warmed a few supporters who were cooling toward him and heated mightily people who hated him anyway. This is no net loss for Bush and possibly, a small gain.
I agree, Bush has nothing to lose and much to gain by keeping his buddy and inside man comfortable and quiet. You are right, the public could not care less about this issue as Bush lovers will see it as another great and selfless act by their hero, while the rest of us already know he is a dirtball and this is just another example. Jim
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post #26 of 195 (permalink) Old 07-04-2007, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanStar
More duck and cover. Are you really so frightened by my point that you continue to ignore it? Why didn't Bush grant a full pardon? And your wager is?
To let him prove that he is innocent on his own. If he gave him a full pardon, he would always have been guilty in the eyes of the opposition.
If and when he proves he is innocent what are you going to say then, he's still guilty?

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post #27 of 195 (permalink) Old 07-04-2007, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanStar
Your reasoning considers Bush's action as a half-measure. It isn't, it is an extraordinary, almost unheard of action on his part. Much more conventional and acceptable to pardon him and be done with it. This is all about the pending civil trial and Bush covering the administration's behind. I would really like to see the civil trial put on hold until Jan 20, 2009 at this point. I don't suppose there's any way to pull that off, is there?
Are you saying that all this thought and planning came from a man that some of you, just a little while ago, couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time?
Damn, he must be a lot smarter then you thought, huh?

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
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post #28 of 195 (permalink) Old 07-04-2007, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
To let him prove that he is innocent on his own. If he gave him a full pardon, he would always have been guilty in the eyes of the opposition.
If and when he proves he is innocent what are you going to say then, he's still guilty?
If you're right, Bush will not grant a pardon on or about Jan 19, 2009, If I'm right, he will. We both know Libby's appeal will fail, so that's a moot point. If the appeal had any kind of chance at all, he would not have been ordered incarcerated during the process. Still no wager?

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post #29 of 195 (permalink) Old 07-04-2007, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce R.
Are you saying that all this thought and planning came from a man that some of you, just a little while ago, couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time?
Damn, he must be a lot smarter then you thought, huh?
Please provide a quote of mine that indicates Dick Cheney is anything less than brilliant. I'll wager $500 on your inability to do so, will you?

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #30 of 195 (permalink) Old 07-04-2007, 11:26 AM
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To answer the original question: Maybe.

It is up to lawyers to figure that one out.

Could Nixon pardon all the Watergate participants before resigning?

I know they weren't sentenced yet, but let's say they were.

Would this be a crime?
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