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post #31 of 137 (permalink) Old 07-05-2007, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Digmenow
That's an over reach for religious product placement.

The Ten Commandments have a contextual place in or around a court of law. I would suggest the Dharmaśāstra would be a more appropriate display. That's fair.
What place do they have? They are religious mumbo jumbo. Show me the COTUS article on coveting thy neighbor's ass.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #32 of 137 (permalink) Old 07-05-2007, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
What place do they have? They are religious mumbo jumbo. Show me the COTUS article on coveting thy neighbor's ass.
I'm sure you meant 'Show me the POTUS article on covering thy neighbor's ass'...

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post #33 of 137 (permalink) Old 07-05-2007, 08:48 AM
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^ ^ ^ Whatever.

The history behind the COTUS is fascinating, as are the stories of Thomas Jefferson's letters, speeches, etc. when people attempt to spin the yarns of their 'intent' into fabric of the law governing this nation.

There's only one thing that matters, and that's what it says in the constitution (as you're so apt to point out when it suits your anti-Bush tirades). Even more significant is what it does NOT say.

Any Supreme Court that read personal letters to ascertain what those few perfectly selected words meant was a supreme court full of dunderheaded self-important legal hacks. The bill of rights is singularly remarkable in it's clarity and efficiency of language. I've yet to see anything other than personal beliefs by the "faux intelligentsia" render any part of it's meaning up for debate.

The simple fact is this - the COTUS is the law of the land. We don't live under a collection of individual state laws, or everyone would have the death penalty and gay marriage. The COTUS - rather on purpose I'd argue - says precious little on the matter of 'church and state', and says nothing about the erecetion of a "wall" between the two.

It may also be worthwhile to keep in mind that more than one or two guys had a hand in drafting, debating, and ultimately ratifying our Constitution. This wasn't the "Thomas Jefferson" show, as you may have us believe.

See my post above, which appears to not be in dispute, for a careful breakdown of what the law does and does not say.

If it weren't for the first amendment, I'm fairly certain that churches would be taxed - a lot. Taxes are established by laws - if the government makes money from taxing a church, it's fair to say it has implicitly "establish[ed a] religion", even if it taxes them all equally, because it certainly wouldn't have "[made] no law respecting an establishment of religion".

The Constitution and Bill of Rights are not terse documents except where it suits the framers. Compare the First Amendment to the Fifth.

Amendment I - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

In those few words, you're guaranteed freedom of religion, speech, press, peaceful assembly, and petition.


Amendment V - No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

All that to establish details like grand juries, "double-jeopardy", due process, and protect from self-incrimination.


The real idiots here are those who would have the rest of us believe that ANY religious element on ANY state ground is unacceptable on the grounds that it is an affront to athiests and people of every other religion. This is a non-issue for 99.99% of Americans, because they don't have their heads in their asses about what the First Amendment does and does not mean. Only an idiot would insinuate from the presence of the 10 Commandments on a courthouse property that the government is suddenly in the church business.
Good points. I agree with all except the 10 commandments thing. Our own Chief Justice Roy Moore placed a monument in the court house in Montgomery and then defied rulings made by federal judges to remove it. It was simply an attempt by Roy Moore to stir up a mess when none was wanted or needed. If he wanted to hang the plaque on the wall behind HIS chair, then fine. The 2 ton monument was a bit much.

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Originally Posted by FeelTheHate
Take your Ten Commandments and shove em up your ass
One should realize that the breadth of their own intelligence is called into question when all that they can do to counter an intelligent argument is with adolescent banter. Have you no article that was written for you to copy and paste?

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post #34 of 137 (permalink) Old 07-05-2007, 08:53 AM
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I'm sure you meant 'Show me the POTUS article on covering thy neighbor's ass'...
Well, I'm a Clinton guy, so covet is the operative clause....

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #35 of 137 (permalink) Old 07-05-2007, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by cmitch
Good points. I agree with all except the 10 commandments thing. Our own Chief Justice Roy Moore placed a monument in the court house in Montgomery and then defied rulings made by federal judges to remove it. It was simply an attempt by Roy Moore to stir up a mess when none was wanted or needed. If he wanted to hang the plaque on the wall behind HIS chair, then fine. The 2 ton monument was a bit much.



One should realize that the breadth of their own intelligence is called into question when all that they can do to counter an intelligent argument is with adolescent banter. Have you no article that was written for you to copy and paste?
It is a statement to make a point. Those ain't my "commandments", get the fucking thing out of my courthouse.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #36 of 137 (permalink) Old 07-05-2007, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
It is a statement to make a point. Those ain't my "commandments", get the fucking thing out of my courthouse.
That's exactly the kind of bull-headed stance that logically ends in nihilism and anarchy. Anybody can pop up and say "that offends me" or "that's not my belief", and we're left with nothing. How very Muslim of you.
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post #37 of 137 (permalink) Old 07-05-2007, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
It is a statement to make a point. Those ain't my "commandments", get the fucking thing out of my courthouse.
The commandments aren't yours no more than the courthouse belongs to just you. I agree that the monument was out of place but not for the same reasons for which you believe it.
One must understand that our own laws were based on the principles of the Ten Commandments: Thou shalt not kill (murder), Thou shalt not steal, etc. When morality becomes based on 'secular' opinions, then there is no reason to believe it is wrong to do these things unless the 'law' says it is. So, if the Ten Commandments are not your Ten Commandments, then what basis do you have for your own morality? Do you believe certain things are wrong because the law says it is or is there something deeper inside yourself that would prevent you from stealing, killing, bearing false witness, etc.? Do you think it's morally okay for you to bang your neighbor's wife while her husband is at work? Do you oppose the Ten Commandments just because you disagree with certain ones (Thou shalt have no other gods before me)?

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post #38 of 137 (permalink) Old 07-05-2007, 09:16 AM
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The commandments aren't yours no more than the courthouse belongs to just you. I agree that the monument was out of place but not for the same reasons for which you believe it.
One must understand that our own laws were based on the principles of the Ten Commandments:
No they aren't -- that's really silly, and supposes two things that are inherently false. One, that the commandments are about law, and two, that people went around wantonly killing and stealing from each other without consequence before Moses came down from the mountain. The 10 Commandments is a Cliff notes version of how to be Jewish. Only two of the commandments have any relation at all to modern day law, and two out of ten is nothing more than happenstance.


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post #39 of 137 (permalink) Old 07-05-2007, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
What place do they have? They are religious mumbo jumbo. Show me the COTUS article on coveting thy neighbor's ass.
Religious or not, they were adopted as a code to follow which is the long way around to say they are laws that governed a group of people's lives. To Ron's request that an object from the Hindu religion also be placed on the grounds, I point out that the Dharmaśāstra would be an appropriate display of another set of laws. Others? Code of Hammurabi, Magna Carta, Nuremberg Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honor, International America’s Cup Class rules (perhaps the most difficult of all to understand) and even the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition.

The common theme among them all is that they are a set of rules to provide governance and as such, would not be out of place in a courthouse, for whatever reason someone would wish to display them.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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post #40 of 137 (permalink) Old 07-05-2007, 10:04 AM
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No they aren't -- that's really silly, and supposes two things that are inherently false. One, that the commandments are about law, and two, that people went around wantonly killing and stealing from each other without consequence before Moses came down from the mountain. The 10 Commandments is a Cliff notes version of how to be Jewish. Only two of the commandments have any relation at all to modern day law, and two out of ten is nothing more than happenstance.

Please define "Modern Day".

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