It's Official! Our fleabag President is above the law - Page 20 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #191 of 218 (permalink) Old 07-03-2007, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by old300D
Back on topic, I thought Froomkin had some good things to say in his op-ed today:
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It's true that the Constitution grants the president unlimited clemency and pardon power. But presidents have generally used that power to show mercy or, in rare cases, make political amends -- not to protect themselves from exposure.

The Framers, ever sensitive to the need for checks and balances, recognized the potential for abuse of the pardon power. According to a Judiciary Committee report drafted in the aftermath of the Watergate crisis: "In the [Constitutional] convention George Mason argued that the President might use his pardoning power to 'pardon crimes which were advised by himself' or, before indictment or conviction, 'to stop inquiry and prevent detection.' James Madison responded:

"[i]f the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds [to] believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty. . . .

"Madison went on to [say] contrary to his position in the Philadelphia convention, that the President could be suspended when suspected, and his powers would devolve on the Vice President, who could likewise be suspended until impeached and convicted, if he were also suspected."


Dan Froomkin - Obstruction of Justice, Continued - washingtonpost.com

I am in full agreement. Impeachment procedings need to commence, just to distract these power-hungry dogs in the administration from doing any more damage to the office and the country.
If you wish to see a play out of that very scenario, look at the Corruption investigation of Kentucky Gov. Ernie Fletcher two years ago. Once all of his folks were indicted he pardoned them immediately, just after indictments came from the Grand Jury and before any trial.

It kept prosecutors and the Attorney General from making any deals with any of the players to flip on the rest and, by extension the Governor.

It appears he will be a ONE term Republican Governor.

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post #192 of 218 (permalink) Old 07-03-2007, 08:51 PM
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Our biggest mistake in the middle east was in telling any of those sun-drenched ragheads that there was any value in oil at all. It's difficult work closing up Pandora's box. They'd have never done anything with it on their own.

Reminds me of the bozos who visit fireworks stands aronud here and plop down $1,200 - $4,000 every night for a week to blow shit up. They have no concept of money or its value.

Value is subjective. It's true that something is worth what people will pay for it, but who is to say what price is "fair" for a given resource, especially if the person holding it doesn't know what it's worth to the person needing it?

I'm not making an argument one way or the other as it applies to the war in Iraq, because I remain unconvinced it's all about oil; I think it's more about hubris. That said, one need look no further than Iran's gasoline shortage (OMGWTFX40R???!?!) to understand that we're being gouged by OPEC. A nation afloat on a sea of oil can't refine enough of it to keep their own country running. Give me a fucking break. The value isn't in the oil, it's in refining capacity. Here's an area where America could SHINE, yet don't, for reasons that have nothing to do with the environment and everything to do with militant environmental activists.
Agree completely with that assessment and would add only to your last line..."Here's an area where America could SHINE, yet doesn't, for reasons that have nothing to do with the environment and everything to do with militant environmental activists and an oil industry that is not committed to less constrained supply since it would negatively affect their bottom line."

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post #193 of 218 (permalink) Old 07-03-2007, 09:10 PM
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Is military use so wrong?
Military use in the War on Terror is not wrong. What is wrong is looking at the "WAR" from a 20th Century Paradigm where Country A fights Country B or, Countries A-F form a coalition to stop Countries G and J from their World remodeling plans.

Right now the War on Terror is a War against a set of fundamental ideals that have roots in many countries. Some are in the Middle East but many are not.

In Great Britain the terrorists were homegrown for the most part. Some trained in the Middle East but that training could just as easily come in any other part of the World. Who does Britain strike out at after these attempted attacks? Who could they strike out at after the 07/07/05 Subway attacks? These were homegrown acts by Fundamentalist Islamists who have lived in the country for years. Military use is not an option; it is a police, internal intelligence issue.

We have to quit trying to bomb a country into believing that we are good. Most people tend to react quite the opposite to that type of action as we have seen. The only way we are going to get a WINNING POSITION in the War on Terror is to build a COALITION of Countries that is willing to actively POLICE terror cells, monitor fundamentalist organizations within legal rights and only use Military Force as a last option. Then, when we do, we are more likely to have the cooperation of the rest of the World as we go after legitimate hard threats.

Bombing and occupying countries only serves to alienate the very people that we are trying to methodically stop hating us. We have to win hearts and minds. That is not a “pull out, build walls and hide” stance, it is quite the opposite as it requires more work, yet yields more cooperation and more respect from the World Community. We need that very much if we are going to work through this.

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post #194 of 218 (permalink) Old 07-03-2007, 09:24 PM
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I'm not a religious person, so it wouldn't have much to do with it. But know this my friend, and read this well. Nothing justifies terrorism. Nothing.

If one of those kids in the pile was mine, well, I can't imagine how irate I would be. I hope I'd have enough of my faculties to remember this - Revenge cannot be meted out on a basis of whomever happens to be around that looks like or thinks like the person who did you wrong.

Revenge is not a justification for murder. There is no justification for a cowardly, indiscrete, anonymous attack. NO terrorist attack EVER has been justifiable. It is a barbaric, repugnant and indefensible practice.

Being a doctor doesn't mean you're not a brainwashed cultist waiting for an instruction to kill. Neither does being a pilot, or a dishwasher, or a janitor in an airport, or the "President" of a "soverign nation". The facade is designed to mislead and distract - it worked. You even fell for it, citing how preposterous it is to consider someone in a trained profession like a doctor to be a potential sleeper cell member.

If the perpetrators kids were actually killed recently, their defense could fairly be considered "temporary insanity". All that means to me is that you lock them up forever instead of issuing a death penalty, which Britain wouldn't do anyway.

I take issue with the assertion that there is somehow fault in seeing our laws and basic tenets of civilized society as black and white. It's a very dangerous business for the layperson (that's us) to advocate selective, arbitrary, subjective, or otherwise inconsistent application of the laws governing us all. You may as well have no laws at all, and before you advocate anarchy, perhaps you should pay the internet's social experiment in anarchy a quick visit. http://img.4chan.org/b/imgboard.html
One point regarding your position. Part of our attacks against Afghanistan and Iraq were, like it or not REVENGE. We were getting back at “those people” who blew up the towers. Think of the mood of the time. Was it a tactical, objective, logical time when everyone looked out and said “let’s target those Al Qaeda terrorists who were responsible for this.”. NO, it was “Let’s make a Fing glass parking lot out of the whole place and let God sort it out!” Remember. That is REVENGE. We struck out because we were struck.

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post #195 of 218 (permalink) Old 07-03-2007, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Shane
It has been answered ad nauseum and you refuse to hear that sometimes it is best for the many to deal with primitive behavior by being even more primitive in behavior. The world is not so sophisticated that we can snub primitive behavior and think that is enough to stop it and call it immoral. It is not enough to see their side and agree or disagree with it. We must think on our own behalf. If we do not look out for ourselves who will? No one that's who. We did not get to the position we are in by stopping all precedings with the drop of the moral hat. We did fancy dances around that hat, as did all recorded history before us.
This explaination does not condone the Iraqi occupation, but it still reacts negatively to a complete withdrawl of troops and influence around the world. That is an unreal scenario that could never and should never be done. Don't start that Iraqi massacre shit because this is by far and away solely not about that cluster fuck.
Why is it a cluster fuck? Because the people of the world and USA are not for it. Period. Had it been not so heavy handed, had there not been so many casulties, and had it not been so idealogical it might have served its purpose. This is all I am suggesting, nothing more.
Exactly what "primitive behavior" did Iraq engage in that justified murdering their kids? You start with a premise that has no basis in fact. These people did not attack us. I just don't see how your reasoning works. How were we "looking out for ourselves" when we attacked this basket case? And your claim on us losing our influence in the world if we left Iraq, how can you assert that in the face our influence in the world has never been lower? You complain of people 'waving a moral flag', yet you fail to see that it is in our morality that our influence is established and lost. We have lost it by becoming fascist thugs. Can you prove what I just said is false?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

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post #196 of 218 (permalink) Old 07-03-2007, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
Herr Goebbels,

The Nazis are illegal in Germany. Is the present German government illigitimate?

How many voters turn-out for our general elections, Herr Goebbels?

Herr Goebbels, your misinformation campaign is getting thinly transparent and weakening over time. You need a rejuvination of your Big Lie.

B
I believe you are, once again, purposely misrepresenting FTL's points. Take for example this one, which you included in the snippet you quoted:

"Their "government" with its CPA dictated constitution is a joke, which is why they cannot get anyone to die for it except for American Sucker Troops."


This point is sharp and has that ring of truth. And, it should appeal to most Americans because it is almost short enough to qualify as a slogan.

But, really, if the Iraqis so love their freedom and are so overwhelmed with the joy of their newfound freedom bestowed by their fledgling democratic government, why are they so unwilling to defend it? Why are they so unwilling to actually make the government function? I think FTL pointed it out. It is not their government. It is our version of their government, formed at gunpoint to our liking. Not necessarily theirs.

And, I find the whole "oil is worth going to war for because the Nazis did it before us" argument very uninspired. If energy is the issue, lets address the issue directly. Expending all our available resources securing the Middle East for access to their oil is quite short sighted. How and when do we harvest this bounty? At what cost, both human and treasure? How long does this bounty quench our thirst for oil? How do we solve our energy needs for the long term, considering the environment, the jobs our dependence on oil creates for Americans, and how it has overwhelmed our foreign policy? I think we need to focus on finding a cure. And, at the moment, I think buying oil on the open market like everyone else addresses that better than making the Middle East unstable, disrupting oil supplies with terrorists trained to expel Americans from the Middle East, and starting civil wars.

I don't see how any of the present foreign policy facets are making the Middle East and its oil reserves more available to the US, which makes the call that we have to "engage" as a super power to force our influence on the Middle East rather than back out of the meddling role we have adopted less obviously compelling. The world's oil supply from the Middle East is less secure now than it was in the summer of 2001, and not because we went into Afghanistan after 9-11-2001.

And, yeah, Bush and Cheney should be impeached. Jim
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post #197 of 218 (permalink) Old 07-03-2007, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
Exactly what "primitive behavior" did Iraq engage in that justified murdering their kids? You start with a premise that has no basis in fact. These people did not attack us. I just don't see how your reasoning works. How were we "looking out for ourselves" when we attacked this basket case? And your claim on us losing our influence in the world if we left Iraq, how can you assert that in the face our influence in the world has never been lower? You complain of people 'waving a moral flag', yet you fail to see that it is in our morality that our influence is established and lost. We have lost it by becoming fascist thugs. Can you prove what I just said is false?

I do not approve of the Iraqi occupation. I do approve of military use toward terrorists. Clear enough?
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post #198 of 218 (permalink) Old 07-03-2007, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Shane
............
Why is it a cluster fuck? Because the people of the world and USA are not for it. Period. Had it been not so heavy handed, had there not been so many casulties, and had it not been so idealogical it might have served its purpose. This is all I am suggesting, nothing more.
Shane, you have to be kidding. Too many "had it not been fors" in there, which are just extra words for "ifs." Which brings to mind my father's old saying "If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass." I heard that thousands of times.

Iraq is a clusterfuck because it was a bad idea, planned poorly, executed poorly, and constantly misrepresented to the American people, and the world at large, by the same criminal minds that just pardoned Libby. It is the result of someone who developed his world view by watching movies, Westerns and old war movies. Someone who thinks the guy who invented the Easy Button at Staples is the greatest American inventor since Thomas Edison.

You want steady oil supplies? Please offer an explanation of how you expect our arrogant, provocative and offensive foreign policy to provide that. How does our present interaction with Venezuela's elected government leader support a steady supply of this precious liquid, worth spilling American blood over? I would rather see Bush suck Chavez' cock and get the US on his favorite nation list again than see another American die for your oil crusade. Jim
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post #199 of 218 (permalink) Old 07-03-2007, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Shane
I do not approve of the Iraqi occupation. I do approve of military use toward terrorists. Clear enough?
Not really. Which terrorists and where? How do you measure whether the military is being effective at achieving the goal, which is presumably to reduce the number and competence of these terrorists?

The military has a role. On 9-12-2001 we should have given the Taliban hours to deliver Al-Qaeda to us. And, when they failed to do so we should have nuked the motherfuckers. That is what our military was trained to do better than anyone else. And, we should always do what we do best to win such encounters. This shit we are involved in now is not working by any military effectiveness measure. I see no where in your prescription anything that aligns the role of military with their capabilities and a mission they can succeed at, without all those "had it not been fors" that afflicts the present role. Jim
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post #200 of 218 (permalink) Old 07-03-2007, 10:13 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Shane
I do not approve of the Iraqi occupation. I do approve of military use toward terrorists. Clear enough?
You may approve, but that doesn't make it particularly effective. Military use is typically most effective against opposing militaries. Terrorists are not military in nature, they are criminal, and are better attacked by coordinated intelligence, infiltration, and other police actions. Think of the way Israel used to round up Nazi war criminals. We could stand to learn a thing or two in that arena....

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