Dems attempt to back door the Immigration Plan - Page 5 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #41 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-28-2007, 02:19 PM
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I opposed this Frankenstein Bill, not on the issue of Amnesty, or as a fear of Mexicans coming across and taking American Jobs but on a couple of really specific issues.

First and foremost was H-1Bs. The bill introduced a doubling of the number of highly skilled folks who are allowed into the country, most who work for contract agencies and replace US technical workers who have been either laided off, fired or forced into early retirement. When jobs ARE posted, as required by law, US workers are not considered as industry wants H-1B workers since they are cheaper, require no benefits on the part of the Corporations [either no benefits or dealt with through contract agency] and position is "temporary" which allows automatic layoffs. This element alone should have been enough to stop this omnibus bill from moving forward. No more H-1Bs until the 500,000+US technical workers who have been laid off are rehired.

Second involves the enforcement of current immigration laws. Everyone who was in support of pushing this bill through said that we could just start enforcing new laws to stop illegal immigrants from coming into the country as soon as the bill became law yet we have three complete agencies that are tasked at this time to enforce strong laws who do not do so. Employers across the nation hire and hide illegal workers daily without fear that they will need to worry about LEO impeding their daily work flow by enforcement of EXISTING INS Laws that prohibit employers from hiring illegals.

Third, the border. We are one of the very few countries in the world that has a border like a sieve. In very few places can 12 Million people wander through borders unimpeded [yet I spent 20 minutes at the Niagara Falls border explaining a twin turbo system and why it just happened to be in my truck, not for nefarious reasons]. We have a border, border laws and a legitimate reason to protect those borders [National Security], It is not unreasonable for us to have been fully and completely enforcing the laws on the books for the past decade.

Regarding reasons Two and Three, how can we trust that new laws will be enforced when we have such compelling evidence that we either don’t have the will or the capacity to do the job to enforce the current laws?

Fourth, we want an open government and all this bill did, from the closed door negotiation of its original writing to its “all or nothing” approach for passage suggests that it is just plain wrong. If the White House, Democrats and Republicans are afraid of open debate on this bill, are afraid of looking at each individual element for its merits then we have to wonder why.
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post #42 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-28-2007, 02:23 PM
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My big complaint with these bills is this whole "comprehensive" concept. The items need to be voted on one at a time. First up needs to be a national employment ID system. I went to Universal Studios Theme Park in Orlando the other day. They scanned my ticket, and scanned my thumb print. After that, I could walk in and out of the park just by sticking my thumb in a scanner. If we can do that for a ride on Bluto's River Rat, why the fuck can't we do it to get a job?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #43 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-28-2007, 02:35 PM
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Because a national ID represents a personal abridgment of liberty and a violation of privacy to all Americans. It is an absolute cornerstone of a socialist nanny-state government, and adds layers of bureaucracy to a federal government that is already bloated beyond all reason.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #44 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-28-2007, 02:42 PM
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All it would take would be for the Fed to standardize driver's licensing minimum requirements to continue to recieve fed highway dollars. Coercive? yes, like standardizing minimum age for drinking laws is coercive. What has drinking got to do with the Commerce Clause? Not much, but everybody winked and agreed it was worth it. The same with standardized driver's licensing.

License could have a photo, evidence of citizenship or legal residency to apply (you know, the 3 forms of ID rule), an encoded SSN, thumb prints, etc. Don't have a licence? Then get a state-approved ID card with the same requirements. Put a huge-ass fine and jail term for fraudulent production of..., or use of..., on that sucker.

Etc.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

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post #45 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-28-2007, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
I opposed this Frankenstein Bill, not on the issue of Amnesty, or as a fear of Mexicans coming across and taking American Jobs but on a couple of really specific issues.

First and foremost was H-1Bs. The bill introduced a doubling of the number of highly skilled folks who are allowed into the country, most who work for contract agencies and replace US technical workers who have been either laided off, fired or forced into early retirement. When jobs ARE posted, as required by law, US workers are not considered as industry wants H-1B workers since they are cheaper, require no benefits on the part of the Corporations [either no benefits or dealt with through contract agency] and position is "temporary" which allows automatic layoffs. This element alone should have been enough to stop this omnibus bill from moving forward. No more H-1Bs until the 500,000+US technical workers who have been laid off are rehired.

Second involves the enforcement of current immigration laws. Everyone who was in support of pushing this bill through said that we could just start enforcing new laws to stop illegal immigrants from coming into the country as soon as the bill became law yet we have three complete agencies that are tasked at this time to enforce strong laws who do not do so. Employers across the nation hire and hide illegal workers daily without fear that they will need to worry about LEO impeding their daily work flow by enforcement of EXISTING INS Laws that prohibit employers from hiring illegals.

Third, the border. We are one of the very few countries in the world that has a border like a sieve. In very few places can 12 Million people wander through borders unimpeded [yet I spent 20 minutes at the Niagara Falls border explaining a twin turbo system and why it just happened to be in my truck, not for nefarious reasons]. We have a border, border laws and a legitimate reason to protect those borders [National Security], It is not unreasonable for us to have been fully and completely enforcing the laws on the books for the past decade.

Regarding reasons Two and Three, how can we trust that new laws will be enforced when we have such compelling evidence that we either don’t have the will or the capacity to do the job to enforce the current laws?

Fourth, we want an open government and all this bill did, from the closed door negotiation of its original writing to its “all or nothing” approach for passage suggests that it is just plain wrong. If the White House, Democrats and Republicans are afraid of open debate on this bill, are afraid of looking at each individual element for its merits then we have to wonder why.
.
To FTL's point, some of the issues dealing with existing and continuing illegal aliens from the border with Mexico could be voted on as stand alone issues. The H-1B issue is also likely not a problem that is tied to the political football of 12 million illegal aliens from Mexico and should have been dealt with separately. I somehow don't believe the authors of the bill were of the opinion that the H-1B issue would have saved it, had they merely deleted that chapter and verse. The bill failed because it was wrapped in a swiftboat wrapper of "amnesty" for illegal aliens.

I know several Europeans who have gone through the immigration process legally in the last two years. Many unnecessary complications. One guy from an Eastern European (formerly behind the iron curtain) country had to go to Canada first and then come here after becoming an Canadian citizen. This was a highly educated, technical professional. Someone we should probably want to immigrate to the US. Instead we pile up hurdles for those who will comply and ignore those who will circumvent them. Ask the Dog Whisperer; you don't train dogs to behave by rewarding behavior you want to suppress and punishing them for behavior you want to promote, so, what makes us think this process is going to work for humans?

Maybe someone will strip away the H-1B's from the bill and get something passed in another swing. Doesn't look like it. And waiting to enforce the existing laws, when no one has done it for more than two decades, if at all along the US - Mexico border, may sound wise, but it will accomplish nothing. There is something significant that prevents anyone from enforcing those laws. Could be funding and personnel, or it could be something else, like graft and special interests. But that problem has to be addressed before the laws can be enacted, and in all likelihood the laws will prove to be inappropriate. Alienating Mexico is not in our best interests. Right now Mexico could be an ally in this process, but, if we abuse 12 million of their citizens who know us best, we might make conditions to bake an enemy worse than Al-Qaeda ever thought they could be for America.

Jim
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post #46 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-28-2007, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith
I know several Europeans who have gone through the immigration process legally in the last two years. Many unnecessary complications. One guy from an Eastern European (formerly behind the iron curtain) country had to go to Canada first and then come here after becoming an Canadian citizen. This was a highly educated, technical professional. Someone we should probably want to immigrate to the US. Instead we pile up hurdles for those who will comply and ignore those who will circumvent them. Ask the Dog Whisperer; you don't train dogs to behave by rewarding behavior you want to suppress and punishing them for behavior you want to promote, so, what makes us think this process is going to work for humans?

Maybe someone will strip away the H-1B's from the bill and get something passed in another swing. Doesn't look like it. And waiting to enforce the existing laws, when no one has done it for more than two decades, if at all along the US - Mexico border, may sound wise, but it will accomplish nothing. There is something significant that prevents anyone from enforcing those laws. Could be funding and personnel, or it could be something else, like graft and special interests. But that problem has to be addressed before the laws can be enacted, and in all likelihood the laws will prove to be inappropriate. Alienating Mexico is not in our best interests. Right now Mexico could be an ally in this process, but, if we abuse 12 million of their citizens who know us best, we might make conditions to bake an enemy worse than Al-Qaeda ever thought they could be for America.

Jim
One of the things that most disturbs me about the last bunch of years of not protecting/enforcing the borders is that everyone makes the assumption that "all that we deal with is illegal Mexicans who are working over here for companies that need the labor wink wink, nudge nudge". It appears that it is also the primary portal for Middle Eastern folk who also apparently want to work as gardeners and minimum wage laborers. Somehow that never makes the big argument that the borders are just not enforceable. Yes they are.

And as for how hard we make it for folks to gain citizenship, I have looked at how other First World Countries do it, how Mexico does it and frankly, folks coming here don't have it that bad. Who ever said it should be fast and easy.

While I don't think we should be putting up artificial annoyance barriers, normal bureaucratic queues are what they are. I shouldn’t have to wait three months for a passport renewal but, unless I want the State Department to triple their budget to be at my administrative beck and call, I have no choice but to deal with that time frame.

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post #47 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-28-2007, 04:36 PM
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The flaw in the logic, bear, is that you are a reasonable person, you plan, and you have some stability in your life that allows you the perspective of being a reasonable person.

The people running across the desert and swimming across the Rio Grande, or tunneling under a fence are not action reasonably and they have a completely different outlook on our situation. The rules and regulations have to be written and enforced to address these people. I maintain if you don't address their motives you will find whatever you do will fall short, and demand ever increasing resources to provide "border security."

If the desire is to prevent Middle Eastern suspected terrorists and other undesirables out at the US-Mexico border, we will need the help of Mexico. Anything that pits Mexico against us will fail.

The solution needs to be realistic. We are not likely to support a wildly expensive, high tech, high maintenance facility with enormous correctional facilities at every other mile marker. So we can't establish criteria or expectations that demand that kind of allocation of resources.

But, if the issue is border security, then we need to define that by proposals, debates and counterproposals and more debate. That isn't happening, the existing laws are not being enforced and likely never will, and everyone has their undies in a knot over a problem no one wants to address. Jim
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post #48 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-28-2007, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
Because a national ID represents a personal abridgment of liberty and a violation of privacy to all Americans. It is an absolute cornerstone of a socialist nanny-state government, and adds layers of bureaucracy to a federal government that is already bloated beyond all reason.
Oooo yeah!

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #49 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-28-2007, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
All it would take would be for the Fed to standardize driver's licensing minimum requirements to continue to recieve fed highway dollars. Coercive? yes, like standardizing minimum age for drinking laws is coercive. What has drinking got to do with the Commerce Clause? Not much, but everybody winked and agreed it was worth it. The same with standardized driver's licensing.

License could have a photo, evidence of citizenship or legal residency to apply (you know, the 3 forms of ID rule), an encoded SSN, thumb prints, etc. Don't have a licence? Then get a state-approved ID card with the same requirements. Put a huge-ass fine and jail term for fraudulent production of..., or use of..., on that sucker.

Etc.
It needs to be a national program. Simple system, tie your fingerprint to your SSN via an electronic database. You want a job, they better match, or you go to jail. The Germans already use it, and it has eliminated their problem with Turkish illegals that were flooding the place.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #50 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-28-2007, 05:31 PM
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While we're at it, can we all live in numbered quonset huts?


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