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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-14-2007, 12:48 PM
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As a part of the bundle the Jury will be seeing a number of pages of the Koran of which Nick has marked the pages as he studied it. That particular copy is the recommended copy by the main strand of Islamic thinking, Nick draws attention to the passage where the Koran states that Muslim males are allowed to take women from other peoples. This he points out directly relates to the issue of grooming in Keighley - as he stated in his spech it is acceptable "as their good book tells them it's ok". The Koran states that Muslims can take any woman that their "right hand can own."
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-14-2007, 12:49 PM
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Verses in the Koran strictly forbid Muslims to follow the laws in the secular democratic countries. In effect, he says, Islam is a complete contradiction of our parliamentary democracy - 'good' Muslims must never follow our laws. A later quote - "Sedition is worse than murder" that means anything that undermines Islam or gets in the way of spreading it is worse than murder, so for example selling alcohol and or advertising posters featuring scantily clothed women are in fact worse - under Islamic law - than murder.
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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-14-2007, 12:50 PM
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The collection of verses about his life that are second only to the Koran as a source of guidance for Muslims. At one point in these Mohammed rejoices as one of his followers hacks off the head of one of his adversaries. This he states is no different to what is going on when Muslims hack off the heads of their hostages in the Middle East, it specifically glorifies that method of killing. He goes on to say that Mohammed himself raped female prisoners of war - this is the example that the Koran sets out as the 'perfect' human being. The real twist to this he says is that it is the rape victim who is at fault under Islamic law for having sex out of wedlock and she can - and in Islamic states does - face being stoned to death for the 'crime' of being raped.
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-14-2007, 12:55 PM
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Islamic or Western culture - which is more tolerant?
Alan Jones' Today Show Editorial - Ayaan Hirsi Ali 6 June 2007

There's not been a lot of coverage with the wider Australian community of the visit to our country in the past week by Ayaan Hirsi Ali

I interviewed this lady yesterday morning on my radio programme.

It is by any measure an extraordinary story.

And an extraordinary woman.

Born a Muslim in Somalia she now argues that "Western culture is superior to Islamic culture" and that "Islam as a body of ideas is not compatible with human rights or with the idea of modern democracy."

She's 37 years of age.

She left Somalia, went to the Netherlands, became a Member of Parliament there but now lives in the United States.

She was a friend of the Dutch film-maker Theo Van Gogh with whom she collaborated on a film that explored the oppression of Muslim women.

Van Gogh was murdered, gunned down while bicycling to work in Amsterdam in November 2004.

The killer is behind bars, but he left a five page letter pinned to Van Gogh's chest with a knife and the note was a death threat addressed to Hirsi Ali.

It has failed to silence her.

When asked why she calls herself a Muslim she says "I'm not, I've become an infidel", and that's the title of her book.

In the introduction to it she says "People ask me if I have some kind of death wish to keep saying the things I do. The answer is no, I'd like to keep living. However some things must be said and there are times when silence becomes an accomplice to injustice."

While in Australia she questioned the need for Islamic schools.

She argued that young people should be groomed to be Australians first, to receive their nationality first, not religion.

She's aware that as an infidel the price many Muslims would want her to pay is death.

But she's quite specific when she says Islam is an inferior culture.

That Islam as a body of ideas is not compatible with human rights.

She's calling for an Islamic reformation similar to the one in which the West escaped medieval religious oppression.

She said she was surprised that people asked what it was like to live with death threats.

She said that people who ask such questions have grown up in rich countries after the Second World War and they've taken life for granted.

She said "Where I grew up death is a constant visitor, a virus, a bacteria, a parasite, a drought or a famine. Soldiers and torturers could bring it to anyone at any time."

She called for Australia to re-evaluate the tolerance of multiculturalism and said we need a new framework in which immigrants have to adapt to the values and principles of their adopted country.

She said the terrorist attacks on the London Underground in July 2005 didn't surprise her.

They shocked her, but didn't surprise her.

She said "If one country has appeased and accommodated Islam and taken multiculturalism to its most absurd end, it's the UK."

When Islam says that its values are compassion, tolerance and freedom, Hirsi Ali says "Look at reality, at real cultures and Governments and I see that simply isn't so."

She said "People in the West swallow this sort of thing because they've learned not to examine the religions or cultures of minorities too critically for fear of being called racist. It fascinates them that I'm not afraid to do so."

She said the best way to shut people up in this modern debate is to call them racist.

Well, a remarkable woman by any reckoning, Ayaan Hirsi Ali calls herself an infidel, and that's the title of her new book.

Perhaps it hasn't received the attention it deserves in our country because Hirsi Ali is right "People in the West ... have learned not to examine the religions or cultures of minorities too critically for fear of being called racist ...".

For a modern Australian, Hirsi Ali's book is compulsory reading.
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-14-2007, 01:02 PM
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During my years living in NYC I made many friends that covered the gambit from Fundamental Muslim to practicing Muslim to practicing Jew to Orthodox Jew to Hasidic Jews to a guy from a group called the Black Israelites.

Many of us worked together in the consulting business on different gigs throughout the World and on many of our 12-15 hour days we talked about the vast differences in our religions [and their many MORE similarities]. To many of those groups I was the minority outsider as a Southern white recovering Southern Baptist so I had many questions and have never backed away from asking the hard ones.

Not once in the years that I worked with these folks, had dinner at their homes, gone to their weddings, funerals, and other occasions did voices rise regarding religion, homeland or who thought they were better than others [and this group would argue to the wall on technical issues when necessary].

My point is that you might want to get a more diverse collection of information about the various religions before posting a bunch of stuff that has very little, if any basis of fact.

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Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #16 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-14-2007, 02:38 PM
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If you are refering to me and my quotes I am just posting a response to the crap that was being posted.

I have worked people from all over the world. If you want to break it down by religion I have seen one US citizen who served in the Isreali armed forces get upset but kept himself in check for the most part. I have also seen one palastinian get very upset and excuse himself from a conversation. When he returned he was much calmer.

Beyond that my experiences are very much like yours. Individuals and small groups were very comfortable discussing any of the topics and accepted that others had different views. Given a chance it is people like these that could work out a peace plan.

Although I would not say what I posted has very little if any basis in fact. It is actually very deeply rooted in facts. Just because it does not really apply to educated individuals that you yourself have worked with does not make it any less true.
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post #17 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-15-2007, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by 430
If you are refering to me and my quotes I am just posting a response to the crap that was being posted.

I have worked people from all over the world. If you want to break it down by religion I have seen one US citizen who served in the Isreali armed forces get upset but kept himself in check for the most part. I have also seen one palastinian get very upset and excuse himself from a conversation. When he returned he was much calmer.

Beyond that my experiences are very much like yours. Individuals and small groups were very comfortable discussing any of the topics and accepted that others had different views. Given a chance it is people like these that could work out a peace plan.

Although I would not say what I posted has very little if any basis in fact. It is actually very deeply rooted in facts. Just because it does not really apply to educated individuals that you yourself have worked with does not make it any less true.
If there were no basis in fact then there would be no:
Suicide bombings
Slavery and slave trade by Muslims in Africa of non-Muslim captives
Forced conversions to Islam
government-protected kidnapping of children of divorced couples

I have never, ever met an American Muslim who believed in any of that crap. American Muslims whom I have met and whom I work with are very much Americans in culture and attitude, even the first-generation Muslims. For the most part they are blessedly relieved NOT to be back in whatever crap country they came from and deeply respect the United States for its institutionalization of secularism. My neighbor up the street is an American citizen and was a student in mechanical engineering at a local university when the Ayatollah took over. He's been here ever since. He visits Iran every year or so and always shakes his head in wonder and relief that he doesn't have to put up with the fascists running that place. Pity the people who must continue to live there. Most of them do not like or trust their government and many fear it. I'd be willing to bet that is the same for many citizens of Islam-dominated states.

B
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post #18 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-15-2007, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
...He visits Iran every year or so and always shakes his head in wonder and relief that he doesn't have to put up with the fascists running that place. Pity the people who must continue to live there. Most of them do not like or trust their government and many fear it. I'd be willing to bet that is the same for many citizens of Islam-dominated states.

B
Rumsfeld et al were willing to bet the same thing in Iraq. Just saying....
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post #19 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-15-2007, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
If there were no basis in fact then there would be no:
Suicide bombings
Slavery and slave trade by Muslims in Africa of non-Muslim captives
Forced conversions to Islam
government-protected kidnapping of children of divorced couples

I have never, ever met an American Muslim who believed in any of that crap. American Muslims whom I have met and whom I work with are very much Americans in culture and attitude, even the first-generation Muslims. For the most part they are blessedly relieved NOT to be back in whatever crap country they came from and deeply respect the United States for its institutionalization of secularism. My neighbor up the street is an American citizen and was a student in mechanical engineering at a local university when the Ayatollah took over. He's been here ever since. He visits Iran every year or so and always shakes his head in wonder and relief that he doesn't have to put up with the fascists running that place. Pity the people who must continue to live there. Most of them do not like or trust their government and many fear it. I'd be willing to bet that is the same for many citizens of Islam-dominated states.

B
EXACTLY!
These people are practicing the true, peaceful Islam. So when we post things using words like terrorism, Muslim, Islam in one sentence it gives the little less educated/arrogant a feeling that all Muslims are terrorists. Bot, I have lived in most of the above countries that have been discussed. The general population have the same values such as being peaceful, wanting to earn a decent living, having a safe environment for their children to grow up, education for children and perhaps some materialistic things are always nice Especially American brands! Therefore we must mention that the less than .0005% of the lunatics who have hijacked this religion are the ones that are being called terrorists and we must make sure as highly educated people to not confuse others who may have lesser knowledge with them believing that Islam, Muslims, etc are all terrorists and are bad. Things exist in all religions that can be taken out of context and presented in such a way as to make it the most evil religion/practices known to man. My posts on Judaism and Hinduism were posted exactly for this reason, to show how evil this practice can be and how easy it is to turn minds of masses. (HITLER?-remember?)
What is completely surprising is that both Muslims and Jews seem to harbor so much animosity towards each other. Both are right and at the same time bot are wrong! In fact, no 2 religions could be closer! Both religions have set rules/laws as to how one must live his/her life. These laws were sent down by God and are not the laws of man. Both religions are centered around the family. Both religions believe in the same God and the same heaven and hell. Both religions forbid pork, extra or premarital sex, homosexuality, both believe in ONLY 1 GOD, and the list can go on for the next 50 pages if I started listing how both Judaism and Islam are similar. As a matter of fact Judaism an Islam are more similar than Judaism and Christianity or Islam and Christianity.
In a perfect world, both groups should be shaken hard (shaken baby syndrome) and asked, "what the hell are you people doing? You all will be dead in 50 years anyways! and why waste your time?" But I guess as you would agree, it is not a perfect world. (I still haven't had a chance to clear up the Kurds and shia thing but I always get side-tracked sch as me posting this thread. But I will do so. I promise! BTW, even though we may not agree on many things, I really appreciate and enjoy your brain and knowledge! )

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post #20 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-15-2007, 08:44 AM
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What is completely surprising is that both Muslims and Jews seem to harbor so much animosity towards each other.
Pretty soon I'll tire of your ramblings, dismissing you as another applicant to the faux-intelligentsia, and just won't care...

...but not yet.

Are you REALLY this stupid. Here, let me give you some background. Muslims believe - quite staunchly - that theirs is the only true religion. Everyone else is a heathen, and by Muhammed and Allah, are to be exponged from the earth.

It's not difficult to harbor animosity toward a group of people - an entire race - who wants very desperately and is in constant motion toward the goal of eliminating you for no reason whatsoever. That this is "completely surprising" indicates just how thick you are, and how far over your head these discussions have become.

This is why Muslims are different - and not in a good way - from every other religious-based culture on the planet. They have no ability to engage in rational discourse. They have no ability (or perhaps desire) to cohabitate with people of differing views. Rather, the only method they can grasp for dealing with a heterogenous planet is murder murder murder murder murder. Kill, oppress, maim, torture, behead, etc., all in the name of a pedophile held as God's sole and true apostle, and his lunatic ravings, (a man who, by the way, conveniently failed to play by the very rules he laid out when they didn't suit his urges). They will continue to do so, until heterogeneity no longer exists. They haven't stopped in 1,400 years. They won't stop...ever.

It's happening today. Watch TV. People are dying at the hands of Muslims, in the name of their religion, as retaliation for the mere offense of not being a Muslim (or even sufficiently Muslim) in a Muslim "holy land". That's not happening in Israel. That's not happening anywhere, quite frankly, at the hands of non-Muslims.

Non-Muslims have been responsible for lots of deaths, sometimes in the name of religion, in the past. Absolutely. In every case, it was because of a single figure - a cult of personality - who followed a predictable path toward power and oppression (seduce the poor, cite a looming danger, stage an event that serves as an act of war against you, and attack until nothing lives or moves). I have trouble naming more than about five of them. How many Muslims do we know that are (or were) actively engaged in plotting the deaths of innocent people around the world, simply because those people aren't Muslim? How many Muslims use the teachings of the sociopathic sicko Muhammed as written in the Koran to justify those acts? I submit to you the number is 100,000 times greater than those who have plotted acts of genocide against other cultures - all of whom were guilty of unforgivable crimes against humanity. As are the Muslims who commit these vile acts. As are the Muslims who passively allow it to happen. As are the Muslims who actively advocate and encourage them to happen. As are the Muslims who cheer in the streets when they've happened. As are the Muslims who find martyrdom to be a glorious and admirable career choice for their children. They are all guilty. All of them.


By the way, I think you're actually really smart. If you'll send me $39 and take an on-line test, I can have you registered as one of the 150 smartest people in your state. Make the check payable to Cognitive Achievement Scholars & Historians, or CASH for short.

Last edited by Qubes; 06-15-2007 at 08:58 AM.
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