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post #141 of 158 (permalink) Old 06-13-2007, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith
It seems the events of 9-11 and our response have been conveniently isolated in a time line of US, and Western culture in general, relationships with Islam. It is much more convenient to assume all events prior to 9-11-2001 did not happen or had no effect on those who planned and carried out the attack, and that the difficulties the world of Islam has with the West have had no influence in the decisions made by Ossamma and the Al-Qaeda shitbirds who attacked us.

In reality that is a faulty view of cause and effect. I have noted this before and will try to repeat it here concisely. Islam is an older culture than ours, and older than the handle "Islam" used to describe their rules for living. In their minds our culture, one of constant change and dependence on technical innovation to fuel the economy, is new and unproven, and results in the contamination of every other culture it comes in contact with, like a virus with no cure, by captivating the younger generation with concepts of instant gratification. When we moved in to buy their oil, we brought shopping malls, cars, rights for women, including driving cars, international attention on the more offensive to our culture essential elements of Islam (like the role of women), fast food, and a fascination with technology. We also brought in a form of capitalism that had to be morphed to suit each of the local tribal forms of government. The "morphing" process was directed by the locals in charge to fuel an enormous difference in wealth between the "haves" (those related to, or trusted by the ruling tribal family) and the "have-nots" (the rest of the population). In the end none of their economies actually represents a reasonable facsimile of our version of capitalism.

In other words the infiltration of features of our culture, which we find rewarding and positive, was not managed to accomplish the same thing for the general populations in the Middle East. One main reason for this was the details were all handled by oil companies, who had little more than their own interests in mind, and the role of our government was mitigated or moderated to ensure the flow of oil was maintained, as its first priority.

So, our involvement in the Middle East has not been positive for the bulk of the Middle East's populations. It should not confuse us that they, the people comprising the "have-nots," do not trust us or like us or want us there anymore. All that oil money has been concentrated in the hands of their true oppressors, their own governments, none of which are inclined to subject themselves to being ejected from their seats atop all these oil riches. In fact, with all the money, their grip on the seat of power has been strengthened, with access to Western technology, including advanced weapons systems.

This has been going on while Americans have been assuming the Westernization of the Middle East has been a good thing for the people there. Because that is how we are programmed to think. Not much differently than the Islamist extremists are programmed to think. It comes down to "our shit doesn't stink." It is a pretty universal element of the human operating system program.

So, 9-11-2001 seemed to come out of the blue to Americans, and Westerners in general. But, it didn't. In fact, our hand has been in the middle of enabling the 9-11-2001 attacks. We supprted Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan along with the other radical groups who were opposing the Russians and ultimately drove them out of the area. Another short sighted bit of meddling in other people's conflicts that has come back to blacken our future.

If you take the events of 9-11-2001 in a broader context, there is still no acceptable "excuse" to Americans for the attack. It was a purposeful attack to kill Americans by the thousands, regardless of whether they had any role in any perceived offenses against Islam. It deserved a strong and harsh response. At the time, and I have posted this in the past, a nuclear response that took out the Taliban and Al-Qaeda was justified on 9-12-2001. Yeah, we would be criticized for it, but in light of the attack we suffered and the nature of the enemy, it was something the international community would have come to accept if it was accompanied by a sincere effort to rebuild the areas. The argument that there would have been collateral damage in the way of a hundred thousand or more casualties pales by comparison to what has been wrought by our invasion of Iraq. And, if a suitably destructive and definitive non-nuclear bombing could have been arranged, a non-nuclear attack that could be equally effective would have been ok with me. But our response should have been with something we do better than anyone else instead of putting our men and women on the ground in a foreign land without the requisite training and a strategic plan to ensure a performance as decisive as nuking the parts of Afhanistan where the Taliban and Al-Qaeda were holed up.

Instead we pussy footed around in Afghanistan and failed to either rid the country of the Taliban, or destroy the leadership of Al-Qaeda. By dragging the process out for nearly six years, Al-Qaeda has been enabled in nearly every Islamic community around the globe. So, today it is true that removing all of the first level heads and members of Al-Qaeda directly associated with the 9-11-2001 attack would do little if anything to cripple Al-Qaeda in its 2007 incarnation. But that was not the case in the Fall of 2001.

The next strategic blunder we made was to invade Iraq under false pretenses, with the goal, as delivered from the "Decider and Commander guy" himself, to "fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here." Think about that. We send our young men and women to Iraq to function as targets for "them over there" so we don't "have to fight them over here." Nothing in that strategy that begets an honorable outcome for our military. No mission statement to unify our troops. Just the rape and pillaging of the Iraqi people for the purpose of turning their entire country into a battle ground for our convenience. Which depends on "supporting the troops" here at home by sending them over there, without a clear mission, to act as targets for the loonies we have attracted and unleashed.

Saddam was a brutal dictator. But he ran a functioning country in the past and was struggling severely under the UN sanctions to run a barely functioning country in 2003. We deposed him and left an environment of chaos that has brought about the sectarian violence you guys so object to - which is horrid and inexcuseable, and involves the United States because of our role bringing it about so "we can fight them over there instead of fighting them over here." But, knowing the history of the region the potential or even likelihood for such violence clearly recognized by many within the CIA, but was ignored or set aside for being too negative by the Bush administration.

When those of us who find the Bush Administration offensively incompetent and speak of our contempt of the costs this ineptitude has foist upon us, it is particularly disheartening to see so many of those responding are parsing the time line into convenient parcels where 9-11-2001 and our responses are isolated to justify our acts. The equating of the acts of the terrorist to the acts our government has sent our sons and daughters, mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters to perform in Iraq is an attempt, that is apparently not working, to show there is nothing honorable about the role our military has been sent to perform. There is nothing honorable, acceptable or excuseable about turning a whole nation into a battle ground, apparently for eons to come, where the US sends its young to act as bait for terrorists while our presence enrages the native population, just to "fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" when there is no evidence we cannot accomplish the goal of keeping the most violent ones out of America by securing our borders properly.

At present we have little international support for our strategy of "fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" and therefore we are forced to go it alone. A more unified approach to fighting against the Islamic extremists, like Al-Qaeda, involving the coordinated support of the rest of the threatened nations around the globe will be much more successful. But, as long as we continue to act as though only our opinion of our actions in Iraq and elsewhere in the world matters, we will be more and more isolated. Alone, we cannot defeat this enemy. The cost in lives of our next generations and treasure cannot be supported endlessly. Given the "war on terror" may in fact be a very long term event, we would be much better served by finding a strategy that can be supported long term that is also effective.

The sooner we abandon our present strategy, which is to train hundreds of new terrorists for every one we kill, and strengthen the urgency of calls for recruits by our illegal occupation of Islamic lands, the sooner we will begin to face the reall challenge. Which is to end terrorism over the long term.

Jim
ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT!!!!!

This needs wide circulation.

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post #142 of 158 (permalink) Old 06-13-2007, 04:46 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by drewprof
It's like you are asking which one is the apostate, the Protestants or the Catholics? Maybe the Seven Day Adventists?

What part of some Kurds are Sunis that eluded you? By the way Sladin studied Sunni theology at the court of Nour Ed Din for almost ten years, what does that make him?
Your understanding and mine are the same.

So your confusion over my asking those questions is probably due to stylistic differences and perhaps you are beginning to understand why I found Designo_E320's statements rather perplexing. I had hoped he would respond directly and I still hope so. Perhaps we can encourage him to explain his observations that Kurds (and several other groups) are not Muslims?

That's what I'm hoping for because it reminds me quite a bit of various Christian sects that "know" what a real Christian is and have no problem discriminating among them. I understand the Christians various arguments among themselves (at least in the context of heresy, apostasy etc in an historical context, my theology never was what it might have been). I would like a discussion of the various Muslim sects and how they perceive their theological differences.

I hope that clears it up for you, does it?

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post #143 of 158 (permalink) Old 06-13-2007, 04:57 PM
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Yes Bot, I will try to drop the confrontational facade and give you a nice little summary about the Muslim sects and what they think about each other but you know that I don't have an answer as to who's right or wrong. In my opinion they are all wrong as much as the premise for our Judeo-Christian religions is wrong. Again, that's an opinion and if I am wrong I know I will be sent to damnation for eternity; I just hope that there will be plenty of whores to play with while in there.
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post #144 of 158 (permalink) Old 06-13-2007, 05:03 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by drewprof
Yes Bot, I will try to drop the confrontational facade and give you a nice little summary about the Muslim sects and what they think about each other but you know that I don't have an answer as to who's right or wrong. In my opinion they are all wrong as much as the premise for our Judeo-Christian religions is wrong. Again, that's an opinion and if I am wrong I know I will be sent to damnation for eternity; I just hope that there will be plenty of whores to play with while in there.
I'm trying to tell you that I am interested in a response from Designo_E320, who made the claims about various sects not being Muslims. I seem to be having difficulty making this plain. I am aware of differences among some of the many Muslim sects. I would like to understand Designo_E320's particular perspective.

Is that still unclear?

Wait, you're not responding for Designo_E320, are you? Maybe I'm even more confused than you think!
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post #145 of 158 (permalink) Old 06-13-2007, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
I'm trying to tell you that I am interested in a response from Designo_E320, who made the claims about various sects not being Muslims. I seem to be having difficulty making this plain. I am aware of differences among some of the many Muslim sects. I would like to understand Designo_E320's particular perspective.

Is that still unclear?

Wait, you're not responding for Designo_E320, are you? Maybe I'm even more confused than you think!
Oh shit I signed up with the wrong user name Is that why I got banned from MS?
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post #146 of 158 (permalink) Old 06-13-2007, 05:11 PM
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This is one of the oddest exchanges I've ever read. Perhaps it would help if Botnst were to start posting in Braille.

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post #147 of 158 (permalink) Old 06-13-2007, 07:59 PM Thread Starter
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This is one of the oddest exchanges I've ever read. Perhaps it would help if Botnst were to start posting in Braille.
My Urdu has improved, don't you think?

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post #148 of 158 (permalink) Old 06-14-2007, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
If the Jews exhibited as fragile a collective ego, and as engorged a collective sense of bloodlust as terrorists (who are almost exclusively Islamic, by their own account), I think your argument may be valid. As it stands, Jews (and every other group of religions frankly) exhibit a very important trait that Muslims lack - self-restraint.

The Christian Bible has plenty of verses that have been used to incent violence and justify war....600 years ago. There's a name for people who think that the Bible is a timeless instruction manual to be followed verbatim - they're called lunatics, and they're particularly dangerous because of their professed religion. Since questioning one's religious beliefs is about the last public American taboo, these crazy fuckballs can say whatever they want, and do just about anything short of killing people, in the name of their religious freedom.

Anyway, do a little research on the topic of Sharia Law, and tell me that violent tenets of fundamental Judaism and Islam are equal in their barbarism and broad cultural adoption.
I believe your comments are best answered in the following 2 posts:
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/off-...ian-state.html

and don't forget to read this!

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/off-...ewish-law.html

have a great day!
post #149 of 158 (permalink) Old 06-14-2007, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
I'm trying to tell you that I am interested in a response from Designo_E320, who made the claims about various sects not being Muslims. I seem to be having difficulty making this plain. I am aware of differences among some of the many Muslim sects. I would like to understand Designo_E320's particular perspective.

Is that still unclear?

Wait, you're not responding for Designo_E320, are you? Maybe I'm even more confused than you think!
Hi BOT, i will be happy to explain. Let me find a little time and I will try to explain in detail. TOO much for me to type at the moment. You know, kinda busy but please don't go away and stay tuned!
post #150 of 158 (permalink) Old 06-14-2007, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Designo_E320
I believe your comments are best answered in the following 2 posts:
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/off-...ian-state.html

and don't forget to read this!

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/off-...ewish-law.html

have a great day!
You're really an exceptionally dumb fuck.

You've managed to completely miss a uniqely Islamic fact, which is that vast numbers of Muslims are living by Sharia law today, this very minute. Many more are perpetuating a culture that very, very closely resembles it in a somewhat less formal manner (all the rules, none of the pesky oversight).

I think you'd have to search long and hard to find anything more than an archaic enclave of Jews who were living by the strict letter of the Talmud rules you had cited in your other posts. That amounted to visual diarrhea, and little more. It's obvious that you've an axe to grind with Jews, which is fine, but don't pull this idiotic Mel Gibson shit and play coy about where you stand here. You've chosen to ignore some very basic, very important facts about the evolution of Jewish and Muslim cultures since the times their religious texts were written.

Here's a fun question. When's the last time an original 'religious' text was even composed? The Book of Mormon, I think, would be the answer. There's a reason for this. People were unbelievably fucking ignorant thousands of years ago, about a great many things, no matter how well their written word cleans up. In the past century, all but the dumbest of sheep have laughed off the idiots who have attempted to weild the concept of religion to further their own abitions. The LDS church is probably the only lasting, successful attempt at anything of the sort - I'm still not sure (like many religions) that the members really understand or question the origin of their faith. Oh well. ALL of this is beside the point. The point remains that ANYONE could justify murder with something they found in some religious text. It is only the Muslims who have continued to do so, unabated, with such ferocity, cowardice, and zeal, for the past two millenia. Virtually everyone else has grown up.

Go ahead - do a search on any civilian conflict in the world where people are losing their lives, and tell me how many of them do NOT involve Islamic antagonists. Don't hurt yourself.
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