Turkey builds up forces on Iraqi border - Page 3 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #21 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-31-2007, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
Suleiman the Magnificent was a Kurd, IIRC.



B
No, it was Saladin.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

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post #22 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-31-2007, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by cascade
Yes, when all is said and done, thanks to Ataturk, the Turks have been a pretty good friend to the West, considering what might have been. They don't consider themselves Arabs, either, just as the Irish don't consider themselves English.

The actions against their native Armenian and Kurdish minorities are troublesome though, as are their relations with the Greeks, especially over the 1974 war over Cyprus, which is still unresolved. I had an apt. in college, and my roomates in it were Jewish, Indian, Greek and Turk. It was less than peaceful at times, especially after the drinking got serious!!!

The Turks have a huge immigrant presence in Germany, where many began as gastarbeiters, (many got work at Mercedes and BMW)
and stayed, and didn't attempt to assilmilate into society. Many Turkish "ghettos" exist in German and other european cities.
They probably don't consider themselves Arabs because they are not Arabs. Turkic people all orginated in Turkmenistan in South Central Asia, while Arabs are of Indo-Persian origin. The two people have never assimilated well.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #23 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-31-2007, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst

Has the EU a way to deal with wayward members?
I don't know for certain, but it would make sense for them to use equalization payments. The EU funnels staggering amounts of cash to member nations that aren't deemed to be a the same level as the median or standard countries in terms of infrastructure. When I was last in Ireland in 2002, Dublin was one gigantic construction zone, and all of the signs were giving credit to the EU's equalization programs.

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Originally Posted by Botnst
Let's say that Turkey goes nuts and becomes a full-blown Islamic state and adopts sharia, which is not at all symmetrical with the EU understanding of human rights.

B
Not at all symmetrical and would present a colossal problem for them. The good news on this front is that two weeks ago an anti-Islamist rally in Turkey (I can't remember the city) had about 1 million people turn out to protest against the Islamification of Turkey. If 1 million will take to the streets there have got to be a significant number of people who support them but couldn't be bothered to protest. I don't see Turkey being a takeover target for the Islamists right now, and EU integration could actually help strengthen the secular government against the Islamists.

edit: I can't remember now if that number was 1 million or if it was 100,000. Still, that's a lot of Turks.
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post #24 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-31-2007, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
You have a problem understanding one of the shortest posts that I have made that consists of only two sentences, neither compound?

Let's try again.

I asked "Are the Turks, in their movements and posturing, trying to get the US to deal with the Kurdish troops with whom they have had ill will for decades?" It followed that "this is not in the mission of the US [however that mission has changed so often that I suppose it could be wedged in somewhere]".


I then asked, somewhat rhetorically if our interceding on the behalf of Turkey, to in effect wipe out their enemy without provocation would be an action that could be construed as actionable by the World Court.

Does that help?
Vastly.

In the first instance, I'd have to say, "Obviously that's the goal of the Turks." The degree to which we respond to their goal is entirely up to the coalition and Iraqi government. The internal politics of Iraq should make that process interesting.

Your second part is a conditional too far for me. It depends on the first to such a degree that until teh first is more clearly defined I don't think the second is within the realm of reasonable conjecture.

B
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post #25 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-31-2007, 10:50 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade
Yes, when all is said and done, thanks to Ataturk, the Turks have been a pretty good friend to the West, considering what might have been. They don't consider themselves Arabs, either, just as the Irish don't consider themselves English.

The actions against their native Armenian and Kurdish minorities are troublesome though, as are their relations with the Greeks, especially over the 1974 war over Cyprus, which is still unresolved. I had an apt. in college, and my roomates in it were Jewish, Indian, Greek and Turk. It was less than peaceful at times, especially after the drinking got serious!!!

The Turks have a huge immigrant presence in Germany, where many began as gastarbeiters, (many got work at Mercedes and BMW)
and stayed, and didn't attempt to assilmilate into society. Many Turkish "ghettos" exist in German and other european cities.
Berlin - Kreuzberg used to be almost exclusively Turkish.
According to German law, there was no dual nationality. That meant, to become German citizens, Turks had to prove to have given back their Turkish passports.
Interesting situations arose, when German citizens of Turkish origin later quietly, and withy help of a Turkish consulate re acquired a Turkish passport, needed to buy and own property in their Contry of birth.
When found out, German authorities in short order withdrew German citizenship, and deported those caught.
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post #26 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-31-2007, 06:29 PM
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FTL, thanks for the correction (Saladin vs Suleiman), above.

B

-----------------

Turkey deploys extra troops to Iraq border as tension with Kurds grows


· Erdogan's forces ready for action against PKK
· Fear of regional instability as US forces pull back

Simon Tisdall
Friday June 1, 2007
The Guardian

A Turkish military build-up on the northern Iraq border is fuelling fears of a confrontation between Ankara and Kurdistan's semi-independent government that could further destabilise the region as US forces begin to pull back.
Turkey's armed forces chief said yesterday the army was prepared at any time to start cross-border action to halt attacks inside Turkey by the separatist Kurdistan Workers' party, which has bases in Iraq.

"As soldiers, we are ready," General Yasar Buyukanit said.

But the general said Turkey's parliament must first agree the aims of any intervention. "The political authorities need to decide this. We can't know whether we will go there and fight only the PKK [Kurdistan Workers' party] or deal with [Iraqi Kurdish president Massoud] Barzani as well."

The Turkish army has deployed additional tanks and troops to the border area this week for "spring manoeuvres". But the military moves, although apparently limited so far, have been accompanied by a rising crescendo of public and political demands for action to curb PKK attacks. The government of the prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, is under pressure, following a suicide bombing, blamed on the PKK, which killed six people in an Ankara shopping mall last week. Officials said the bombing marked an escalation in the separatists' campaign. Mr Erdogan's comment, after the Ankara blast, that he saw "eye to eye" with the army over future military action has raised expectations that an operation is imminent.

Mr Barzani, head of the Kurdistan regional government (KRG), which enjoys considerable autonomy from the Shia Arab-led Baghdad government, has warned that any Turkish intervention could meet with resistance, both in northern Iraq and in south-east Turkey.

Mr Barzani's fighting talk has been condemned by US officials who are urging Ankara to hold fire, too. They worry that the region could be destabilised if the two sides collide. But Turkey's inclination to take matters into its own hands may have been strengthened by this week's formal handover of the three northern Kurdish provinces of Iraq - Arbil, Dahuk, and Sulaymaniyah - to KRG security forces. Only a few US forces will now remain in the northern region.

Speaking on Turkey's Kanal D television channel this week, the US ambassador, Ross Wilson, said Washington was pursuing "a number of avenues" with Ankara to curb PKK attacks. "I am hopeful that they will produce results," he said. In the interview he had to explain why two US F-16 fighter jets had crossed the Iraq border and violated Turkish airspace this month. Turkey issued an official protest after the incident, which Mr Wilson termed accidental. But Turkish media suggested Washington was sending a none-too-subtle message to its Nato ally to keep out of Iraq.

Turkish officials say their government's patience is exhausted with the rising level of PKK attacks and US prevarication. "The military build-up has been going on for the past month," a Turkish diplomat said. "We are trying to get Iraq, the US, and the Kurdish regional government to act more responsibly. But unfortunately so far we have not had enough cooperation. We are trying to act with restraint. But public opinion is really boiling after the suicide bombing last week."

The diplomat said Mr Barzani's "irredentist rhetoric", appearing to assert a political and territorial claim to ethnic Kurdish areas of south-east Turkey, was exacerbating the situation. Media allegations that Kurdish authorities in northern Iraq were aiding the PKK and, like US forces, turning a "blind eye" to its activities, were widely believed, he said. "We know for sure that most of the explosives used by the PKK come from northern Iraqi territory," he added. "The US could help us a lot more. They could have captured leading figures in the PKK but instead they have given them safe haven. This is very harmful to public opinion and Turkey's relationship with the US."

Kurds in north Iraq and south-east Turkey say Ankara is to blame for a conflict that has claimed an estimated 37,000 lives since 1984. They point to systemic civil and human rights abuses and institutionalised discrimination against Turkey's ethnic Kurd minority. Despite reforms designed to ease Turkey's entry into the EU, many grievances remain unaddressed.

Several internal factors are stoking the pressure on Mr Erdogan, who may see limited military action as a way of distracting attention from home: these include the general election in July, an impasse over the next president, controversial constitutional reforms, and debate on preserving Turkey's secular character. The last big cross-border operation was 10 years ago, in Saddam Hussein's regime, when 40,000 Turkish troops entered Iraq. But some Turkish observers said that action was not a success and predict any new incursion would also be of limited utility.
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post #27 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-31-2007, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jlomon
I don't know for certain, but it would make sense for them to use equalization payments. The EU funnels staggering amounts of cash to member nations that aren't deemed to be a the same level as the median or standard countries in terms of infrastructure. When I was last in Ireland in 2002, Dublin was one gigantic construction zone, and all of the signs were giving credit to the EU's equalization programs.
That one way of putting it...

The way I see it from the UK is that the EU is composed of a few donor nations - Germany, UK. France, and many more beggar nations, eg, Ireland, Spain, etc. So the hard-working nation's taxes are used to build roads & bridges in the nations that don't get off their butts to improve themselves.

These are nation states not federal states, so an analogy with the US is not equivalent.
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post #28 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-31-2007, 07:22 PM
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Hey, keyhole, what's Italy considered as?
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post #29 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-31-2007, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by keyhole
...
These are nation states not federal states, so an analogy with the US is not equivalent.
It's equivalent to the USA prior to our civil war. Historically, the colonies that formed teh USA considered themselves autonomous after separation from England. They formed a confederation that was remarkably similar to the EU. It became evident that the central government was too weak to do any good for the several states and too expensive to keep as a useless luxury, so the former colonies dissolved that entity and created a new one with a stronger central government. Many of the former colonies entered the new union with extreme reservations and wrote into their signatory comments and/or into their constitutions the right of withdrawal form the union. In the early 19th century several of the New England states actively considered withdrawal from the union, citing the clauses in their original signing. Argument rather than force, restrained them. Later, a number of southern states made the same argument. That matter was finally resolved in 1865.

I'm willing to bet that even in the UK some of the voting units (forgive my ignorance, but I forgot what the community is labeled that elects an MP) are net losers to taxation while others are net winners. That's sure true in the USA. For example, my state receives more in benefits then it pays in taxes while other states like New York (if my demonstrably faulty memory serves me this once) pay a huge overage. Thus, I am not surprised that there are disparities. The degree to which the supporting states are willing to shoulder the burden will largely determine the success or failure of unification.

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post #30 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-31-2007, 09:28 PM
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FTL, thanks for the correction (Saladin vs Suleiman), above.

.
I only know that because I am currently reading a book on the Crusades to find out how this whole mess started. Most of them were looting expeditions, indeed the European Christians even sacked the cities of the Eastern Christians.

Interestingly, the Kurds ruled over the Arabs during the time of Saladin, ruling over kingdom granted them as vassals of the Turkish Sultan. The capital of the Middle East at the time was Mosul, of all places, the current largest Kurdish city, and it encompassed all of the Middle East south of Turkey between Iran and Egypt.

Even more interesting, Saladin and Saddam Hussien were born in the same shithole village of Tikrit, a fact I am sure Saddam's progandists did not miss, and Saladin himself was not part of the ruling Kurdish class, he somehow ended up as the ruler of Egypt. More here:

Saladin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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