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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-24-2007, 11:28 PM
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was born before nam happened so no idea...but this iraq thing i can see the US and Co pulling out in 2, 3 years and Iraq will end up in a long and bitter civil war until maybe the country is divided into two....i personally think the US and Co should concentrate more on the islamic extremists and north korea and iran...iraq's destined to have a civil war when US pulls out...iraq's more about just gettng rid of suddam, unlike WW2 if hitler and hirehito were gotten rid of there'd be no war...

actually to have total peace we have to get rid of all religion...

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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-25-2007, 12:46 AM
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Getting rid of radical ISLAM religion would be a good start.....

Jim
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-25-2007, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade
The results of the fall of Saigon, and the US embassy evacuation, are well known and documented.

Iraq today seems like a fragmented and virtually ungovernable place, except perhaps in the Kurdish controlled areas in the North.

As was pointed out, it has no long history of nationhood as "Iraq" before 1920.

If the American "Green Zone" is evacuated by US forces, then it will be overrun by mobs of Looters (as in Saigon in April 1975).

You only need to look to 2003 to see that the "Looter" mentality commands the mentality of the general population of Iraq. Only the threat of being shot keeps them in check, many of them are savages, and anything unguarded would be stripped bare like a bunch of armyworms. . Saddam knew this very well.

However this is the last thing in President Bush's mind, right now, as the ambitious construction in the green Zone of the huge new embassy prroceeds apace.

By the way, Thach sounds like a Vietnamese name. Are you by some chance Vietnamese-American, and know anyone who was in Saigon in April 1975?
(Just wondering)
You give a nice view of the American side of things in Vietnam. What exactly do you think the Vietnamese thought of it? To them, they had driven out the last of the colonial powers who had stolen their natural resources for two centuries. For them, they had driven out an army that we all know committed unspeakable atrocities on the civilian population, killed a million of them in "free fire zones" and who had dropped more bombs on them than was dropped on the Germans in WWII. For them, they were giving traitors what they deserved, and I would have been doing the same damn thing if it was my country and those who had been collaborators with an invader had been left behind for me to deal with.

But even more, why do I, as an American taxpayer, give a flying fuck what happened to any of those people? If they had wanted what we were selling, they would have driven out the Viet Cong their fucking selves. Same thing goes for the fucking Iraqis. I could give a shit if they burn their country down and kill as many of themselves as possible. They have made it clear they have no intention to have a unified peaceful nation, and we are idiots to think one more American life lost there is not a stupid, criminally stupid shithead waste. There is not one American life worth the life of any of these people. If you think there is, go there your fucking self.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-25-2007, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
You give a nice view of the American side of things in Vietnam. What exactly do you think the Vietnamese thought of it? To them, they had driven out the last of the colonial powers who had stolen their natural resources for two centuries. For them, they had driven out an army that we all know committed unspeakable atrocities on the civilian population, killed a million of them in "free fire zones" and who had dropped more bombs on them than was dropped on the Germans in WWII. For them, they were giving traitors what they deserved, and I would have been doing the same damn thing if it was my country and those who had been collaborators with an invader had been left behind for me to deal with.
You are usually awfully astute, and accurate, but you forgot something here. How many refugees actually escaped, when the country folded in April, 1975? And, how many more people wanted to get the hell out, but couldn't? And how many got out later? There were a lot of 'em who didn't like Uncle Ho and ended up in their "re education" camps, which weree nobody's idea of Club Med.

Ever been to San Jose, or Westminster, "little Vietnam" California or any of those Vietnamese communities?

I hope you like Vietnamese food, because, in your parlance, you now have the chance to eat a fucking lot of it. The big benefit of 55,000 American dead is a plethora of Vietnamese restaurants and nail salons all over the USA.


Quote:
But even more, why do I, as an American taxpayer, give a flying fuck what happened to any of those people? If they had wanted what we were selling, they would have driven out the Viet Cong their fucking selves.
True, I don't think the Gulf of Tonkin and the Domino theory resonated much with them....


Quote:
Same thing goes for the fucking Iraqis. I could give a shit if they burn their country down and kill as many of themselves as possible. They have made it clear they have no intention to have a unified peaceful nation, and we are idiots to think one more American life lost there is not a stupid, criminally stupid shithead waste. There is not one American life worth the life of any of these people. If you think there is, go there your fucking self.
Show me where I ever said, or hinted, that American lives limbs and blood are being spent for a good reason over there in Iraq.

I have heard a lot of reasons, but none of them resonate with me, if they ever did, democracy, if we don't fight them there, we will fight them here (heard THAT old bromide just yesterday from GWB!)

Like the Vietnamese embassy looters, these Iraqi guys too have a disproportionate number of looters among them, too.

I wonder, do you like Iraqi food?

Something tells me that one of these days, you'll have big chance to eat a lot of it in fucking Houston

Jim
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-25-2007, 11:45 AM Thread Starter
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Post South Vietnamese Military

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
You give a nice view of the American side of things in Vietnam. What exactly do you think the Vietnamese thought of it? To them, they had driven out the last of the colonial powers who had stolen their natural resources for two centuries. For them, they had driven out an army that we all know committed unspeakable atrocities on the civilian population, killed a million of them in "free fire zones" and who had dropped more bombs on them than was dropped on the Germans in WWII. For them, they were giving traitors what they deserved, and I would have been doing the same damn thing if it was my country and those who had been collaborators with an invader had been left behind for me to deal with.

But even more, why do I, as an American taxpayer, give a flying fuck what happened to any of those people? If they had wanted what we were selling, they would have driven out the Viet Cong their fucking selves.

The South Vietnamese Military did finally get their "act" together and tried to the best of their abilities based on the supplies that they had to defend their country.

Also Note:

In January 1975, North Vietnam invaded South Vietnam at the city of Đ√* Nẵng. Nguyễn Văn Thiệu notified President Ford that he was of the opinion that North Vietnam had violated the 1973 Paris Peace Accords and asked for $300 million of aid, but the U.S. Congress would not release the funds. Angered, Thiệu stated "The United States did not keep its word. Is an American's word reliable these days?", "The United States did not keep its promise to help us fight for freedom and it was in the same fight that the United States lost 50,000 of its young men."



Have you heard about the Battle of Xuan Loc?

The South Vietnamese military was noted by all sides for their determination to stop the North Vietnamese Army from going through Xuan Loc to get to Saigon.

Major General Le Minh Dao commanded the 18th Infantry Division during the Battle of Xuan Loc. The Battle of Xuan Loc was the last major battle of the Vietnam War. The 18th Division attempted to defend the city of Saigon. Le Minh Dao was captured at the end of the battle. He spent 17 years in a re-education camp. After his release, Le Minh Dao received political asylum in the United States.

1. Battle Of Xuan Loc

2. NEXT, THE STRUGGLE FOR SAIGON | TIME

3. Battle of Xuan Loc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade
By the way, Thach sounds like a Vietnamese name. Are you by some chance Vietnamese-American, and know anyone who was in Saigon in April 1975? (Just wondering)

Pertaining to my own family, I had 1 Uncle that served as a Captain that was a helicopter pilot trained in the United States at Fort Rucker, Alabama and his unit did not have any fuel to provide any air support and he decided to gather his immediate family and head to Saigon to be evacuated to the United States.

My 2nd Uncle was a South Vietnamese Field Artillery Officer and retreated with his unit to the Mekong Delta and his unit surrendered due to no military supplies to sustain or defend their poisition on May 3, 1975.

My 3rd and 4th Uncle were Non-Commissoned Officers (NCO) in the South Vietnamese Army were in battle of Xuan Loc and were captured by the North Vietnamese Army.


Respectfully,


James Van Thach

Quote:
"That currently peace can only be accomplished with an honest broker not with Terroristic attacks. For our nation young people need to become more involved in our governmental process because they need direction in their life and the U.S. Army is the place to grow. The military is a great extended family that will only benefit our future."
Marco Benz Descendant of First Gas Automobile Inventor Karl Benz

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/12/prweb321042.htm
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post #16 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-25-2007, 12:25 PM
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James,

Thank you for your perspective on the Vietnamese war's last days in 1975.
A lot of people forgot that Nguyen Thieu managed the war ineptly in its last months, simply abandoned the North and Da Nang in the beginning of 1975 and let the NVA roll up the country like a window shade, and the ARVN can't be faulted for that ddecision, nor Hanoi's bad faith in the Paris Peace accords, arguing about the shape of the conference table, and the like...

I hope everyone here opens up your links, they are fascinating and educational.
The battle of Xuan Loc is a story worth the telling.......

It astonishing to know people resisted until May 3! Everything I read was that Big Minh stopped all hostilities on April 30th.

(There is a poster here, AsianML, who is Vietnamese American, but he is too young to remember anything about the war, but travels to Vietnam occasionally).

Nowadays the Vietnamese conflict seems to be shrouded in misinformation, thank you for clearing it up. It was, as you know, not exactly the same thing as Iraq is today.....

Jim
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post #17 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-26-2007, 08:18 AM
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I refuse to accept the concept that "North Vietnam invaded South Vietnam". The only people who thought this was two separate countries was us. The reality, as in Iraq, is that a country called Vietnam was having two simultaneous wars -a civil war within its national society and a war with a foreign invader that had decided to intervene in their civil war on the side of one of the factions. In both these wars, the people of the nation are the center of gravity. If the general population had not supported the communists, we would have won. If the general population of Iraq supported us, we would be winning there as well. Why is this so?

There was no consensus in South Vietnam among the populace for a nation called "South Vietnam", and those who fought for it for the most part did so half-hearted. Like Iraq, the people of Vietnam saw the South Vietnamese government as a government of quislings and collaborators, insuring, again as we see in Iraq, a patriotic opposition that would, like all patriotic oppositions, fight with tremendous savagery against both the invader and the collaborators, and unless totally destroyed, would possess the will to fight forever. It is the old maxim, that it is better for a man to die on his feet than live on his knees. It is easy to portray a collabrist government as a group of men living on their knees. Absent the total destruction of the enemy, such psychology is impossible to defeat. The enemy simply lives among the population or finds cross-border sanctuary, and relies on spies and helpful information from the populace to inflict a death of a thousand cuts on the invader while it commits terrorist acts on collaborators or anyone who does anything to help them. Botnst destroys his own argument for our involvement in Iraq by giving the examples of Kenya and Malaysian, where insurgencies failed because the center of gravity, the people, were not supportive of the insurgencies. That is the whole point: it is why one campaign failed, while the other succeeded.

In wars such as Iraq and Vietnam, the biggest mistake is the first mistake: getting involved in the first place in such a calculus. After the debacle of Vietnam and now the relearning of the same lessons in the fiasco of Iraq, perhaps this country will re-learn the philosophies of Total War set forth by General William Tecumseh Sherman that served this nation well from 1863 until the Korean War: War is, and should be waged as, hell. A nation must be totally committed to war, its economy must be totally based on war if war comes, its people must be totally and completely mobilized if war comes, and the ultimate goal of all military strategy and tactics must be the complete and total destruction of the enemy, and this job must be completely given over to the military until it had been achieved, who would be given moral license by national consensus and a committed population to committ any act of moral depravity required to achieve victory.

Given the truth of these axioms, Sherman states that one must conclude that war is nothing more than the unleashing of every unspeakable moral evil, and if we are a moral people, we must commit ourselves to the belief that war should be waged very, very reluctantly, and only if a moral outrage exists that will motivate a nation to go the lengths of moral depravity necessary to completely win a conflict. But the central axiom of Sherman (derived from George Washington's admonitions), the one we have failed to observe in all wars we have lost, is that above all else, this nation must never initiate any war unless a clear and obvious moral outrage has occurred against us, to do otherwise makes us no better than barbarians, or to update his language, fascists and Nazis. Sherman, a man of his times, states it also is a sin against God to waste the life of soldiers for aims that are not based on penultimate needs of national defense, and that the seeds of defeat are sown when we wage wars of aggression, because deep down inside our own population will never be morally at ease with themselves as war unfolds, the current fate of America, and, he believed, was the ultimate cause of the defeat of the Southern Confederacy.

This was the cornerstone of American foreign and military policy until it ended with the firing of Douglas MacArthur by Harry Truman. MacArthur simply wished to do as Sherman commanded: if we were to wage war in Korea, we must be willing to totally the destroy the enemy, or we should not wage war at all. But now the military had atomic weapons at its disposal, and the Sherman Doctrine become a terrifying conundrum for civilian leadership: Total War would now result in the total destruction of both parties. It caused them to become too involved with the mechanics of war, and as time went on, these fools tried to apply corporate management philosophies to war, starting with McNamara and ending with his dumber brother, Rumsfled, abandoning Sherman's Doctrine instead of realizing that in this new world where atomic warfare is no longer a threat, the Sherman Doctrine again applies. McNamara, Rumsfled, Wolfywent: the same clowns in theater of idiots who have now twice attempted to destroy this nation by thinking war is akin to selling soap.

The big question that exists is this: given the attack on 9-11, why did this not happen? Why was Afghanistan not visited with total destruction? Why was the goal in Iraq to reform their society, and of course, why were they attacked in the first place?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

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post #18 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-26-2007, 08:53 AM
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This is a must read to sort of predict if we are going to have mass evac from the Green Zone
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