Eureka - Purdue scientists turn water into hydrogen on the cheap - Page 2 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-21-2007, 06:00 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
old300D's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jul 2003
Vehicle: '83 240D
Location: Denver
Posts: 3,774
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
I never said it was a fuel source, YOU said it was not a fuel:
Hydrogen is not only NOT a fuel, it's a piss-poor energy transfer medium.
That clearly is wrong isn't it........... The point in this "discussion" was a nonpolluting FUEL, and hydrogen fits that discription, doesn't it.
You are good at semantics, but that's about it. So it's not a viable fuel. Hydrogen made with aluminum is most certainly NOT non-polluting, and I challenge you to show me otherwise.

OBK #35

old300D is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-22-2007, 01:48 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Bruce R.'s Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 2002 SLK 32 AMG, bone stock. 1987 190E 2.3-16 valve (destroyed). 2005 E320 new toy.
Location: Near Washington, DC
Posts: 14,926
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by old300D
You are good at semantics, but that's about it. So it's not a viable fuel. Hydrogen made with aluminum is most certainly NOT non-polluting, and I challenge you to show me otherwise.
Using your train of thought, we're all dead already, so why bother looking for anything that might be an advancement of any kind. We can’t use electricity because it’s no better than Hydrogen as an energy transfer, plus dragging a power cord down the highway at 65 mph could prove hazardous. We already know that batteries suck because they have to be disposed of and recycled very carefully. All the various fuel you haven’t bothered to go into pollute in one way or another, and now you make the statement that: “Hydrogen made with aluminum is most certainly NOT non-polluting.” and I’m supposed to prove it’s not. YOU made the statement, how about YOU back it up for a change of pace. YOU show how it is.
As far as hydrogen not being a viable fuel, there are a number of auto manufacturers out the working real hard at proving you wrong, including Mercedes and BMW.

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
Bruce R. is offline  
post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-22-2007, 02:18 PM
Will Moderate For Cigars
 
cmitch's Avatar
 
Date registered: Apr 2005
Vehicle: 2002 ML320, 2005 S430 4MATIC, 2010 F150 Crew Cab
Location: City on the TN River
Posts: 10,693
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 204 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
Hey, Bruce! I made you a signature.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Hydrogen.jpg (11.7 KB, 51 views)

2005 S430 4Matic 'Morton' W220.183 722.671 Rest in Peace

Bells and whistles are thorns and thistles.
cmitch is offline  
post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-22-2007, 02:18 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
old300D's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jul 2003
Vehicle: '83 240D
Location: Denver
Posts: 3,774
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
Using your train of thought, we're all dead already, so why bother looking for anything that might be an advancement of any kind.
Is that a question or a statement? It certainly doesn't lend to civil debate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
We can’t use electricity because it’s no better than Hydrogen as an energy transfer, plus dragging a power cord down the highway at 65 mph could prove hazardous.
This is a stupid thing to say. There is a 50% loss of energy using electicity to make hydrogen. It makes more sense to store electricity in a battery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
We already know that batteries suck because they have to be disposed of and recycled very carefully.
Nothing is the matter with battery recycling. It works very well. Is that all you have to dismiss batteries?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
All the various fuel you haven’t bothered to go into pollute in one way or another, and now you make the statement that: “Hydrogen made with aluminum is most certainly NOT non-polluting.” and I’m supposed to prove it’s not. YOU made the statement, how about YOU back it up for a change of pace. YOU show how it is.
You made the claim it's non-polluting. That's a load of bullshit. You obviously haven't a clue about how energy intensive it is to mine and smelt aluminum. Go educate yourself, then think about consuming aluminum to power a vehicle. Start here. ClimateBiz - Tools & Resources | Climate and the Aluminum Industry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
As far as hydrogen not being a viable fuel, there are a number of auto manufacturers out the working real hard at proving you wrong, including Mercedes and BMW.
So because they've been given financial support by the petroleum industry to develop fuel cells, that's supposed to be proof that it's viable? Remember oil shale? It's proof only that big oil wants to hold on to their market share. Unfortunately for them, the science isn't on their side; If you want to debate the science, you just let me know. If you want to continue to issue nonsense and hyperbole, I'm done.

OBK #35

old300D is offline  
post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-22-2007, 02:27 PM
Will Moderate For Cigars
 
cmitch's Avatar
 
Date registered: Apr 2005
Vehicle: 2002 ML320, 2005 S430 4MATIC, 2010 F150 Crew Cab
Location: City on the TN River
Posts: 10,693
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 204 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by old300D
Is that a question or a statement? It certainly doesn't lend to civil debate.
This is a stupid thing to say. There is a 50% loss of energy using electicity to make hydrogen. It makes more sense to store electricity in a battery.
Nothing is the matter with battery recycling. It works very well. Is that all you have to dismiss batteries?
You made the claim it's non-polluting. That's a load of bullshit. You obviously haven't a clue about how energy intensive it is to mine and smelt aluminum. Go educate yourself, then think about consuming aluminum to power a vehicle. Start here. ClimateBiz - Tools & Resources | Climate and the Aluminum Industry

So because they've been given financial support by the petroleum industry to develop fuel cells, that's supposed to be proof that it's viable? Remember oil shale? It's proof only that big oil wants to hold on to their market share. Unfortunately for them, the science isn't on their side; If you want to debate the science, you just let me know. If you want to continue to issue nonsense and hyperbole, I'm done.
So, manufacturing batteries using all kinds of corrosive agents to pack in them is environmental? I venture to say, since I know a bit about battery manufacture myself, that when batteries are made out of lead, the 'dross' that is left over has to be disposed of somewhere. And the dross that comes out of recycling lead also has to be disposed of. This isn't limited to just lead but ANY metal that is used for the plates, including gold! The dross that comes out of aluminum, on the otherhand, isn't as concentrated in lead and other heavy metals than is lead itself. Furthermore, the vast majority of aluminum in use today is recycled, not smelted from ore. The local aluminum plant here uses no ore at all. Only recycled metals.

One could use the argument against aluminum in the manufacture of automobile cylinder heads and such. No manufacturing process is 'clean' but if choices are to be made, then I'd rather see an aluminum based catalyst used as opposed to all those lead acid or nickel cadmium batteries that are being used.

2005 S430 4Matic 'Morton' W220.183 722.671 Rest in Peace

Bells and whistles are thorns and thistles.
cmitch is offline  
post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-22-2007, 02:49 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
old300D's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jul 2003
Vehicle: '83 240D
Location: Denver
Posts: 3,774
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmitch
So, manufacturing batteries using all kinds of corrosive agents to pack in them is environmental? I venture to say, since I know a bit about battery manufacture myself, that when batteries are made out of lead, the 'dross' that is left over has to be disposed of somewhere. And the dross that comes out of recycling lead also has to be disposed of. This isn't limited to just lead but ANY metal that is used for the plates, including gold! The dross that comes out of aluminum, on the otherhand, isn't as concentrated in lead and other heavy metals than is lead itself. Furthermore, the vast majority of aluminum in use today is recycled, not smelted from ore. The local aluminum plant here uses no ore at all. Only recycled metals.

One could use the argument against aluminum in the manufacture of automobile cylinder heads and such. No manufacturing process is 'clean' but if choices are to be made, then I'd rather see an aluminum based catalyst used as opposed to all those lead acid or nickel cadmium batteries that are being used.
It's not a catalyst, aluminum is consumed -- in this case, more would have to be mined.. There is a lot of energy put into making the aluminum, and that energy needs to be calculated as on of the energy inputs to the "fuel". As far as batteries are concerned, lead-acid is old tech. Lithium ion has promise, especially since they are so ubiquitious in cell phones and laptops. The track record for recycling is not good with those devices, but automotive recycling is very good, as most people have battery replacements done by a mechanic.

OBK #35

old300D is offline  
post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-22-2007, 03:01 PM
~BANNED~
 
deathrattle's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jan 2005
Vehicle: 1992 W126 300 SE
Location: Head in the clouds
Posts: 11,045
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmitch
So, manufacturing batteries using all kinds of corrosive agents to pack in them is environmental? I venture to say, since I know a bit about battery manufacture myself, that when batteries are made out of lead, the 'dross' that is left over has to be disposed of somewhere. And the dross that comes out of recycling lead also has to be disposed of. This isn't limited to just lead but ANY metal that is used for the plates, including gold! The dross that comes out of aluminum, on the otherhand, isn't as concentrated in lead and other heavy metals than is lead itself. Furthermore, the vast majority of aluminum in use today is recycled, not smelted from ore. The local aluminum plant here uses no ore at all. Only recycled metals.

One could use the argument against aluminum in the manufacture of automobile cylinder heads and such. No manufacturing process is 'clean' but if choices are to be made, then I'd rather see an aluminum based catalyst used as opposed to all those lead acid or nickel cadmium batteries that are being used.
You are j/k right?

I apologise for my laziness in not offering more references, but just a little googling will put you straight.
As a starter : Recent expansions in global aluminium

Moreover, in the developed world the recycling and recovery of heavy metals is both sophisticated and efficient and does not present a huge environmental challenge. In LEDC's however................
deathrattle is offline  
post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-22-2007, 03:37 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Bruce R.'s Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 2002 SLK 32 AMG, bone stock. 1987 190E 2.3-16 valve (destroyed). 2005 E320 new toy.
Location: Near Washington, DC
Posts: 14,926
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by old300D
Is that a question or a statement? It certainly doesn't lend to civil debate.
Civil debate is something that doesn't always come from your computer. You have a tendency to dismiss others comments as though you had a corner on all the knowledge that is or ever was. You seldom if ever back up your statements with any facts, and I'm not the only one that has noticed that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by old300D
This is a stupid thing to say. There is a 50% loss of energy using electicity to make hydrogen. It makes more sense to store electricity in a battery.
That being the case why is the use of hydrogen cells common in spacecraft? Batteries are heavy and take up a lot of space. They use metals such as lead, cadmium, and chemicals that are very hazardous to the people that recycle and resmelt the metals. Recycleing is common, but what are the returns on the batteries that are recycled, maybe 50% on the metal content?
Quote:
Originally Posted by old300D
Nothing is the matter with battery recycling. It works very well. Is that all you have to dismiss batteries?
See the above, it's not as simple as it seems, plus dragging a few thousand pounds of lead acid batteries around doesn't make for great fuel efficiency, no matter what fuel you use to charge the batteries. NiCad and Lithium Ion haven't come along far enough to warrant full time use no matter what they use in the Prius. Those batteries will have to be replaced, and the cost will stagger the owners when they find out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by old300D
You made the claim it's non-polluting. That's a load of bullshit. You obviously haven't a clue about how energy intensive it is to mine and smelt aluminum. Go educate yourself, then think about consuming aluminum to power a vehicle. Start here. ClimateBiz - Tools & Resources | Climate and the Aluminum Industry
The only claim I made was that hydrogen was non polluting. Show me where I said something else............ I have a very good idea of the smelting and metal making processes, I worked for a company that made castings in Mahwah, N.J. They also had a bearing recycleing plant for bronze railroad bearings in Meadville, PA, and a wheel casting plant in Alabama. I have a limited background in that area. Aluminum is one of the easiest metals to recycle, useing some as a basis for fuel via hydrogen is no big deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by old300D
So because they've been given financial support by the petroleum industry to develop fuel cells, that's supposed to be proof that it's viable? Remember oil shale? It's proof only that big oil wants to hold on to their market share. Unfortunately for them, the science isn't on their side; If you want to debate the science, you just let me know. If you want to continue to issue nonsense and hyperbole, I'm done.
Talk about hyperbole, I think you have the corner on that market in this conversation.
Just because the oil companies want to support the development of fuel cells, that automatically makes it a bad thing huh? If they thought that the science wasn’t on their side for these cells, I’m sure that they would drop them like a hot potato. The oil companies aren’t known for throwing money away are they……

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
Bruce R. is offline  
post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-22-2007, 03:44 PM
~BANNED~
 
deathrattle's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jan 2005
Vehicle: 1992 W126 300 SE
Location: Head in the clouds
Posts: 11,045
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
If and when we find a way of producing cheap and clean electricity (possibly fusion), then for transportation, hydrogen has to be a front runner and all the current investment in research will be rewarded.
deathrattle is offline  
post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-22-2007, 04:02 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
old300D's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jul 2003
Vehicle: '83 240D
Location: Denver
Posts: 3,774
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
Civil debate is something that doesn't always come from your computer. You have a tendency to dismiss others comments as though you had a corner on all the knowledge that is or ever was. You seldom if ever back up your statements with any facts, and I'm not the only one that has noticed that.
It does on this thread. This topic should not be political. I'm still waiting for you to back ANY of your rhetoric up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
That being the case why is the use of hydrogen cells common in spacecraft?
Because they are lightweight. In the aerospace industry, weight is the PRIMARY concern, not efficiency nor cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
Batteries are heavy and take up a lot of space. They use metals such as lead, cadmium, and chemicals that are very hazardous to the people that recycle and resmelt the metals. Recycleing is common, but what are the returns on the batteries that are recycled, maybe 50% on the metal content?
Returns on materials? I don't know, try finding some data instead of speculating...They are getting better, and already ARE better than H2, especially considering the monumental infrastructure change, and for what? So an H2 car can sort of compare to an electric one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
See the above, it's not as simple as it seems, plus dragging a few thousand pounds of lead acid batteries around doesn't make for great fuel efficiency, no matter what fuel you use to charge the batteries. NiCad and Lithium Ion haven't come along far enough to warrant full time use no matter what they use in the Prius. Those batteries will have to be replaced, and the cost will stagger the owners when they find out.
For wheeled transportation, weight is much less of a concern. An electric car is nearly comparable to a normal one, both in performance and range. Have you heard of the tZero? 0-60 in 4 seconds, 2000 lbs and a 200 mile range. And fuel is cheap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
The only claim I made was that hydrogen was non polluting. Show me where I said something else............ I have a very good idea of the smelting and metal making processes, I worked for a company that made castings in Mahwah, N.J. They also had a bearing recycleing plant for bronze railroad bearings in Meadville, PA, and a wheel casting plant in Alabama. I have a limited background in that area. Aluminum is one of the easiest metals to recycle, useing some as a basis for fuel via hydrogen is no big deal.
The fact that the H2 by itself is not polluting is misleading, and shows you have an agenda. If you want to be honest you must include all the energy inputs and pollution associated with the entire process and infrastructure tha supports it. Aluminum recycling does not presently address all the current manufacturing needs for the material; using aluminum as fuel will not come from recycling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
...
Just because the oil companies want to support the development of fuel cells, that automatically makes it a bad thing huh? If they thought that the science wasn’t on their side for these cells, I’m sure that they would drop them like a hot potato. The oil companies aren’t known for throwing money away are they……
Yes, because there is enormous amounts of petroleum used in H2 production. And aluminum production. And in all the new infrastructure that must be build. It merely perpetuates the carbon emissions we are trying to reduce. The oil companies are using their influence to continue their monopoly on energy, when the most efficient and beneficial way to develop and use energy now is to decentralize the whole market and let competition work again.

Your own president said we are addicted to oil, what are you going to do to break the addiction?

OBK #35

old300D is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Mercedes-Benz Forums > Off-Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  • Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
     
    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page
    Display Modes
    Linear Mode Linear Mode



    Similar Threads
    Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
    Alito shot the Pope - according to the Purdue newspaper error firstmb Off-Topic 4 01-13-2006 05:28 PM
    Water sloshing & turn signal stalks Bald Bill W210 E-Class 2 11-11-2004 02:53 PM
    Almost got stranded in Eureka! UniquelySanFrancisco W163 M-Class 5 01-03-2004 09:50 PM
    OT: Honey, did you remember to turn off the water pipes in the garage? Russ-DC R170 SLK-Class 5 05-21-2003 06:54 PM
    Water in the front fenders turn signal housing - drivers side (more) Roadster R170 SLK-Class 1 12-29-2002 09:14 AM

    Posting Rules  
    You may post new threads
    You may post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are On
    Pingbacks are On
    Refbacks are On

     

    Title goes here

    close
    video goes here
    description goes here. Read Full Story
    For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome