At Least On This Board The "Left" Seems More Hostile.. - Page 6 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #51 of 76 (permalink) Old 05-19-2007, 11:15 AM
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This damned boat would move a lot faster if we lightened it by removing half the rowers.

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Let me think about that...

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post #52 of 76 (permalink) Old 05-19-2007, 11:36 AM
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OK, Bear, and what would you have them do? What are they empowered to do by the constitution of this country? Would you have them control the actions of a company seeking to reduce their labor costs? Maybe they should run all the companies in the country. Maybe we should just scrap this republic, the constitution, let the government control everything . . . I think that's been tried.

I want to earn this much money doing what I want to do living where I want to live. I don't want to have to go where the jobs are or learn to do them. You should feel sorry for me if there's someone in the world who does what I want to do way cheaper than I do and takes my job away from me, in fact, you should make the company employ me doing what I want to do where I want to do it . . .
To your first paragraph, you remove the tax breaks that Corporations take when they move their manufacturing jobs offshore. That is not a penalty; it is just takes away some of the primary incentives. Those would include the writeoff of the now discarded manufacturing floor; the termination packages required by states and the unemployment costs that they pay to the states to address the increased unemployment insurance costs. Again, that is not a penalty; it just takes away the incentives.

To your second paragraph, you figure out how 50 year olds who have been working factory jobs can pick up and move to "where the jobs are". The "jobs" look for young, cheap labor that turns quickly, that has minimum overhead and minimum benefits. Most state’s labor department STRONGLY suggest that those over 50 don’t go the “move to the jobs” route as there is minimal chance for long term employment for those 50 and up, retrained or not.

You might want to do some research before the flip attempt.

McBear,
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post #53 of 76 (permalink) Old 05-19-2007, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce R.
OFFSHORING is the new name for things that have happened many times in the past. The railroads lost a tremendous number of people when computers came on line in that industry, and they finally figured out where all their railcars were. You might recall back in the late 70's and early 80's when the railroads were finding all kinds of railcars that were left on sideings since the war years.....
The ripple effect went through the entire industry and they had to cut folks in the car building companies and all their suppliers. I lost my job over that one. I found another job, and it paid better. Just because you have a job for the last 10 or 15 years is no guarentee that you will have it for the rest of your life, and it doesn't matter if you like what you do or not.
Robots replaced how many workers on auto assembly lines in the recent past, what happened to those people? Some of them learned how to repair robots if they were smart didn't they...... and that paid better too.
Things change, and you damn well better be prepared to change with them or you end up SOL.........
I agree completely that technology changes effect how companies build their work forces. I also understand how automation cuts jobs. That does not, however change how a company takes out entire communities with offshoring. That is a different animal. Living in a larger metropolitan area you might not find as much of a issue but in rural America when a company, such as Jockey pulls a facility out of a town, that might be the only paying job for 50 miles around and the manufacturing supports two to three counties. There is no "just find another job" and most of the folks can't just move as there are not open jobs for folks of that age. That is where OFFSHORING differs from the slipstreaming of robots or even when a flagman was removed from the caboose - then the caboose was replaced by the "Japanese Engineer".

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post #54 of 76 (permalink) Old 05-19-2007, 11:49 AM
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As usual, your leftwing view of the world causes you to think the world is tipping over. To try and blame "this Administration" for "promoting a RECORD TRADE DEFICIT of over $5TRILLION..." is just plain nuts. "Off-shoring" was a fact of life long before this Administration. It is a direct, and positive, result of our Global Economy and the free market system. The bottom line will drive companies to do business wherever they can make the most money for their stockholders. Governments that try to interfere in this equation, such as totalitarian regimes in a few countries around the world, not only hurt their economies they hurt their workers and eventually lose the businesses they try to control. BIG MISTAKE! We have the strongest economy in our history because this Administration has elected NOT to interfere in the free market system and, in fact, grease the wheels of the system by lowering taxes on everyone.
What you fail to understand [or not care about] with the $5Trillion Bush generated trade deficit and Offshoring is that there is a tipping point where we as a country become a "services only" country that no longer has manufacturing because administrations such as this has "greased the wheels of the system". Yes, the International Corporations will do well with their stocks but that is NOT the way a nation measures its wealth or its value. Look through the history of the Industrial Revolution and see what happens to countries that lose their manufacturing base.

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post #55 of 76 (permalink) Old 05-19-2007, 12:11 PM
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To your first paragraph, you remove the tax breaks that Corporations take when they move their manufacturing jobs offshore.....
I didn't know they got a tax break. How does that work?

B
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post #56 of 76 (permalink) Old 05-19-2007, 12:37 PM
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Let me think about that...

Take your own advice.
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post #57 of 76 (permalink) Old 05-19-2007, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
What you fail to understand [or not care about] with the $5Trillion Bush generated trade deficit and Offshoring is that there is a tipping point where we as a country become a "services only" country that no longer has manufacturing because administrations such as this has "greased the wheels of the system". Yes, the International Corporations will do well with their stocks but that is NOT the way a nation measures its wealth or its value. Look through the history of the Industrial Revolution and see what happens to countries that lose their manufacturing base.
First, "trade deficit" is a misnomer in a global economy. And second, it is not a bad thing, it is the result of good things in our economy. I found this in a CATO report: "The fundamental cause of the trade deficit in the United States today is the gap between what we save as a nation and the level of domestic investment. To cover this shortfall of savings, we offer investment opportunities to foreigners, using the surplus of incoming capital to pay for the import of goods and services over and above what we export. The result is a trade deficit (or more precisely, a current account deficit). For a nation such as Japan, where the level of savings exceeds investment, capital flows overseas. This allows foreigners to buy more exported goods and services from the country exporting capital than they import to the country, resulting in a trade surplus.


So the variables in the trade-deficit equation are not industrial competitiveness or trade policies, but how much a nation saves and invests. If a nation’s rate of savings rises or if investment falls (as it usually does during a recession), its trade deficit will shrink. Conversely, if savings fall or investment rises (as it typically does during an expansion), the trade deficit will grow.

For this reason, trade deficits tend to be pro-cyclical, rising and falling with the general health of the economy. Simply put, the U.S. trade deficit is not the cause of bad things in our economy; it is the result of good things, chief among them rising investment."

You seem to view the US economy as that colonial little manufacturing mecca it used to be during the industrial revolution. It is not now, nor has it bee for a very long time, anything remotely resembling your vision. You need to get passed that leftwing propaganda if you ever want to really understand this subject.

Don't believe everything you think

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post #58 of 76 (permalink) Old 05-19-2007, 02:57 PM
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First, "trade deficit" is a misnomer in a global economy. And second, it is not a bad thing, it is the result of good things in our economy. I found this in a CATO report: "The fundamental cause of the trade deficit in the United States today is the gap between what we save as a nation and the level of domestic investment. To cover this shortfall of savings, we offer investment opportunities to foreigners, using the surplus of incoming capital to pay for the import of goods and services over and above what we export. The result is a trade deficit (or more precisely, a current account deficit). For a nation such as Japan, where the level of savings exceeds investment, capital flows overseas. This allows foreigners to buy more exported goods and services from the country exporting capital than they import to the country, resulting in a trade surplus.


So the variables in the trade-deficit equation are not industrial competitiveness or trade policies, but how much a nation saves and invests. If a nation’s rate of savings rises or if investment falls (as it usually does during a recession), its trade deficit will shrink. Conversely, if savings fall or investment rises (as it typically does during an expansion), the trade deficit will grow.

For this reason, trade deficits tend to be pro-cyclical, rising and falling with the general health of the economy. Simply put, the U.S. trade deficit is not the cause of bad things in our economy; it is the result of good things, chief among them rising investment."

You seem to view the US economy as that colonial little manufacturing mecca it used to be during the industrial revolution. It is not now, nor has it bee for a very long time, anything remotely resembling your vision. You need to get passed that leftwing propaganda if you ever want to really understand this subject.
I understand the subject very well. And that was a nice cut and paste you did there. That description only shows half the story on trade imbalance. And since you think my thoughts are “leftwing” on the subject I am betting you don't know which half.

McBear,
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post #59 of 76 (permalink) Old 05-19-2007, 03:02 PM
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I understand the subject very well. And that was a nice cut and paste you did there. That description only shows half the story on trade imbalance. And since you think my thoughts are “leftwing” on the subject I am betting you don't know which half.
Why don't you tell us about your half...

Don't believe everything you think
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post #60 of 76 (permalink) Old 05-19-2007, 03:04 PM
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I didn't know they got a tax break. How does that work?

B
Short sleazy version is a corporation gets a better tax break by closing a plant [taking all capital expenses deductions as a one time cost] ,folding a pension/employee buyout package [another onetime cost] and write-off of funds paid to unemployment insurance agencies at various states [again one time] while also taking capital transfer and startup costs associated with any move. All the while continuing production during the slipstream move.

Lexmark, as an example got $37M in tax breaks when they moved production of one printer line from Lexington to the Philippines.

It makes very bad quarters look good.

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