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post #61 of 84 (permalink) Old 05-01-2007, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by drewprof
That's because they have no way out. Look at them in Iraq fleeing to Syria and Jordan. Where is our help and support? That's what they see and that does not encourage them to "collaborate" with an occupation that destroyed their lives.
True they are tolerant of the radical ones that kill them but have learned that we are no better indeed. Did we give them a better choice? Have we shown them that we can protect them? I guess they prefer a monster they know than one that they don't and can't predict its intentions.
Yeah, I think you're right. In fact, I think it's written in either the Qu'ran or in Sharia law books. Isn't it? I mean, it must be - everything else in there excuses away animalistic behavior as being someone else's fault...why else would it be a woman's fault if she got raped? Why else would a raped woman's family feel shame, while the attacker was allowed to carry on freely? Why else is murdering an infant acceptable because it was born to parents of a different religion? It's not their fault.

Hell, I think I could sell Islam to the masses!

"Hey, Mexicans! Forget Catholicism - join my First Islamic Church, where our motto is, 'Hey holmes, its not my fault!' Free chips & queso! Fuck anyone you want! Get fired? Kill the infidel! Someone make a joke about you? Slice off their heads! Bring the kids to watch a weekly stoning! We like futbol too! There'll be an execution at center field during halftime of every game, of some bitch who really deserved it!"
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post #62 of 84 (permalink) Old 05-01-2007, 10:21 PM
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Yeah, I think you're right. In fact, I think it's written in either the Qu'ran or in Sharia law books. Isn't it? I mean, it must be - everything else in there excuses away animalistic behavior as being someone else's fault...why else would it be a woman's fault if she got raped? Why else would a raped woman's family feel shame, while the attacker was allowed to carry on freely? Why else is murdering an infant acceptable because it was born to parents of a different religion? It's not their fault.

Hell, I think I could sell Islam to the masses!

"Hey, Mexicans! Forget Catholicism - join my First Islamic Church, where our motto is, 'Hey holmes, its not my fault!' Free chips & queso! Fuck anyone you want! Get fired? Kill the infidel! Someone make a joke about you? Slice off their heads! Bring the kids to watch a weekly stoning! We like futbol too! There'll be an execution at center field during halftime of every game, of some bitch who really deserved it!"
hmmm under Saddam they did not have Sharia; it sure isn't under Al Assad or Arrafat and now the not so important Abbas and of course it is is not the law under Quaddafi or Bouteflika or Ben Ali and on and on and on. You cite examples from Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia where Islamist have taken hold but those actions are from ignorant assholes that interpret their religion their way. I don't think anywhere in the Bible there were instructions on how to use torture devices to make conversos out of the Moors or the Jews of Spain or is there and I missed them?
The presidents that I named above are all on our list of guys to be compromised (a shit list if you will) through our policies because we don't agree with them or simply don't like them. The bottom line is that once they are gone the Islamists will be all too happy to fill in the void, do you even see my point?
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post #63 of 84 (permalink) Old 05-01-2007, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by drewprof
That's because they have no way out. Look at them in Iraq fleeing to Syria and Jordan. Where is our help and support? That's what they see and that does not encourage them to "collaborate" with an occupation that destroyed their lives.
True they are tolerant of the radical ones that kill them but have learned that we are no better indeed. Did we give them a better choice? Have we shown them that we can protect them? I guess they prefer a monster they know than one that they don't and can't predict its intentions.
I agree in principle with Cuban - I see no reason why it is our responsibility or obligation to give them help and support to sort out how they want to be governed. Also, when you boil it down, our help and support amounts to sending someone in a government there cash, and we lose our ability to see that the cash is used for any specific purpose we intended.

For the most part the Middle East is presently blessed with a resource they can sell for any amount of money they want, and we are insatiable, so there is a lot of money in the Middle East. What they do with that money is one of the problems, as is the money we give them to "help." Given their wealth from oil, I fail to see why the wealthiest states don't use their wealth to lift the Middle East standard of living, and why they need any checks from us.

It should be abundantly clear our ability to offer meaningful help and support is limited. We are the infidels, and accepting our help (money) with any strings attached to modify their behavior towards us is viewed with suspicion within their world. The credibility amoung their peers of anyone accepting our "help and support" seems to be lost inside their culture.

It seems the lesson is to stay out of their internal affairs. If it takes a few more thousand years for the dust to settle, we might be better served by seeking ways to limit the influence of the radical Islamists in areas of the world where we relate to the local populations better. Jim
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post #64 of 84 (permalink) Old 05-01-2007, 10:33 PM
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I'm just taking a shot in the dark to watch you squirm and dance.

Really I don't give a damn where you say your are from or who you say you are. But you do know that it is apostasy to deny Islam once you've accepted it and that it is the Islamist mofo's duty to behead you for your denial at the earliest opportunity, right?

Gotta keep the good mojo with those guys. Just thought you should know, since you have denied being a Muslim, right?

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Does this mean I have to stop eating pork or get my head chopped off? You are not giving me any 3rd option?

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post #65 of 84 (permalink) Old 05-01-2007, 10:37 PM
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Does this mean I have to stop eating pork or get my head chopped off? You are not giving me any 3rd option?
No, I think you can go ahead and stop eating the pork and still have your head chopped off. Jim
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post #66 of 84 (permalink) Old 05-01-2007, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith
I agree in principle with Cuban - I see no reason why it is our responsibility or obligation to give them help and support to sort out how they want to be governed. Also, when you boil it down, our help and support amounts to sending someone in a government there cash, and we lose our ability to see that the cash is used for any specific purpose we intended.

For the most part the Middle East is presently blessed with a resource they can sell for any amount of money they want, and we are insatiable, so there is a lot of money in the Middle East. What they do with that money is one of the problems, as is the money we give them to "help." Given their wealth from oil, I fail to see why the wealthiest states don't use their wealth to lift the Middle East standard of living, and why they need any checks from us.

It should be abundantly clear our ability to offer meaningful help and support is limited. We are the infidels, and accepting our help (money) with any strings attached to modify their behavior towards us is viewed with suspicion within their world. The credibility amoung their peers of anyone accepting our "help and support" seems to be lost inside their culture.

It seems the lesson is to stay out of their internal affairs. If it takes a few more thousand years for the dust to settle, we might be better served by seeking ways to limit the influence of the radical Islamists in areas of the world where we relate to the local populations better. Jim
I also agree that it is not our reponsibility or obligation to give them help and support and in turn then you must agree that we should not do that with Israel as well, right? I mean otherwise it will be clear that we are siding only one side and that the wealth you speak of is just a prize we need to wrestle away from these savages, right?
Most ME oil producing countries like Saudi, UAE and other Gulf States do actually pay their natives salaries for doing NOTHING but of course the royals take the lion share with the oil compnaies (that happen to be mostly American). They don't need our money but we have turned Iraq into a bottomless cookie monster with no end in sight, why?
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post #67 of 84 (permalink) Old 05-01-2007, 10:43 PM
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No, I think you can go ahead and stop eating the pork and still have your head chopped off. Jim
You are a Democrat aren't you.
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post #68 of 84 (permalink) Old 05-01-2007, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by drewprof
I also agree that it is not our reponsibility or obligation to give them help and support and in turn then you must agree that we should not do that with Israel as well, right? I mean otherwise it will be clear that we are siding only one side and that the wealth you speak of is just a prize we need to wrestle away from these savages, right?
Most ME oil producing countries like Saudi, UAE and other Gulf States do actually pay their natives salaries for doing NOTHING but of course the royals take the lion share with the oil compnaies (that happen to be mostly American). They don't need our money but we have turned Iraq into a bottomless cookie monster with no end in sight, why?
Well, no, I don't think we need to cut Israel loose, at least not based on that logic.

I think we should buy oil at the going price from the oil producing countries' representatives in the market. Like any other oil consumer.

I think we can offer help and support to anyone we want to, and part of the selection criteria can be how that serves our interests.

I think we need to be more open in our national strategy about what we believe "serves our interests." Both to inform and gain support of the American people for this set of national strategic goals and priorities, and to let those who care to align with our interests,know what those interests are.

If Israel elects to align with "our interests" and the rest of the Middle East would rather eat each other in endless wars and conflicts, we may have to look carefully at what supporting Israel does to our interests. But that doesn't mean the answer will be that Israel needs to be shunned. We can still support Israel if Israel truly supports what we have identified as our interests. This could be negotiating with Israel's neighbors in good faith, something I am not convinced has been done for some time, and implementing a plan for peace. But, there should be no net "penalty" for aligning with our interests for Israel if Israel's neighbors elect not to algn similarly, which is kind of what you are advocating - we balance the lack of help and support that Israel's neighbors receive because they don't want to align with us, by withdrawing support for Israel who does.

Our foriegn policy is so convoluted and inconsistent because we have no long term national strategy, and our government's actions are too often influenced by Wall St. which has a very short term vision. So we end up with an irrational, flawed, and now costly albatross historical foreign policy to assemble our future alliances on, one four year patch of this quiltwork at a time.

Jim
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post #69 of 84 (permalink) Old 05-01-2007, 11:12 PM
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You are a Democrat aren't you.

Actually I do vote Democratic more often than Republican, but I am not a registered anything and vote some of each party routinely. I don't see why that has anything to do with leaving all your options open to you. I meant it. Go ahead an quit eating the pork, and have yourself beheaded. By all means. Jim
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post #70 of 84 (permalink) Old 05-02-2007, 02:12 AM
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Islam for dummies

Quote:
Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
Yeah, I think you're right. In fact, I think it's written in either the Qu'ran or in Sharia law books. Isn't it? I mean, it must be - everything else in there excuses away animalistic behavior as being someone else's fault...why else would it be a woman's fault if she got raped? Why else would a raped woman's family feel shame, while the attacker was allowed to carry on freely? Why else is murdering an infant acceptable because it was born to parents of a different religion? It's not their fault.

Hell, I think I could sell Islam to the masses!

"Hey, Mexicans! Forget Catholicism - join my First Islamic Church, where our motto is, 'Hey holmes, its not my fault!' Free chips & queso! Fuck anyone you want! Get fired? Kill the infidel! Someone make a joke about you? Slice off their heads! Bring the kids to watch a weekly stoning! We like futbol too! There'll be an execution at center field during halftime of every game, of some bitch who really deserved it!"
Hahaha, good one.

Observing some of them, it's really difficult not to think of them as a bunch fucking animals, REALLY low on the evolutionary totem pole.

Even now carrying on a blood squabble among one another for something that happened 1300 years ago. A ghastly, horrific religion that glorifies death, hatred, intolerance and atavistic violence.

Jim
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Last edited by cascade; 05-02-2007 at 02:19 AM.
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