Durbin knew American public was misled into Iraq war - Page 4 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #31 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-28-2007, 02:18 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 2014 E250 Bluetec 4-Matic, 1983 240D 4-Speed
Location: USA
Posts: 9,257
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
They were given contradictory evidence, and the Administration always insisted the side that meant war was right. Much of this is public knowledge at this point - Durbin knew that analysts in the Department of Energy were saying no way on the aluminum tubes, they were totally wrong for use in centrifuges. The administration marked these dissents as "secret". Meanwhile, fucking liars in the Department of Defense were claiming they had ironclad evidence they were being used to produce nuclear weapons, and they claimed that they had an inside source who had confirmed this was true. Of course, this side of the argument was not marked "secret" and Cheney and Rice refered to the aluminum tubes numerous times in their fucking lying speeches. All of the committee members on both sides of the aisle knew of this. Are they to be indicted too, Botnst? What is your official story for them, come on, you always have one for the Republicans and one for the Democrats, what is it?

The truth is BushCo gamed the system. They knew how to use The Official Secrets Act to keep everyone's mouth shut, not just Durbin's.
The short answer is "yes" - the rest of the committee should be forced to testify before Congress and if the evidence to prevent the war was there, or there was evidence Bush Co was cooking the books, they should all be impeached and tried for treason. Unfortunately, I agree with Bot on this one.

I learned my lessons on a different topic that cost no one their lives, but cost the taxpayers nearly a quarter billion dollars. I thought I was "clean" because I did my job as an engineer/technical manager and recommended something not be tested because it was flawed by design and would fail. I was overruled by a Navy Commander. The test article blew up, and cost many months and many millions of dollars. I was raked over the coals by the Naval Reactors guys in the post mortem, "lessons learned" excercise because I knew the item was flawed and I let them test it. I thought they were joking at first. They weren't. I got calibrated - nothing short of physically being jailed or beaten to a pulp by the operators for refusing to step aside would have been acceptable.

You either have responsibility or you don't. In this case Durban had a responsibility to figure out how to stop this and didn't, so he unilaterally broke his agreement with the American public. Same with the rest of the dickheads on the committee. Now is a meaningless time to address the issue, unless you are going to take down the whole bushel of rotten apples. Starting with Bush and ending with those who knew in the Congress and the CIA. We don't need people like that in positions of responsibility and a really bad experience for those who perpetrated this could serve as a deterrent in the future. Jim
JimSmith is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-28-2007, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
Administratoris Emeritus
 
GeeS's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 2021 SL770
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
Posts: 44,915
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 591 Post(s)
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
They were given contradictory evidence, and the Administration always insisted the side that meant war was right. Much of this is public knowledge at this point - Durbin knew that analysts in the Department of Energy were saying no way on the aluminum tubes, they were totally wrong for use in centrifuges. The administration marked these dissents as "secret". Meanwhile, fucking liars in the Department of Defense were claiming they had ironclad evidence they were being used to produce nuclear weapons, and they claimed that they had an inside source who had confirmed this was true. Of course, this side of the argument was not marked "secret" and Cheney and Rice refered to the aluminum tubes numerous times in their fucking lying speeches. All of the committee members on both sides of the aisle knew of this. Are they to be indicted too, Botnst? What is your official story for them, come on, you always have one for the Republicans and one for the Democrats, what is it?

The truth is BushCo gamed the system. They knew how to use The Official Secrets Act to keep everyone's mouth shut, not just Durbin's.
Well, that's kind of the point, isn't it? Anyone who was really paying attention back then knew that this bullshit was not ample justification to invade, so there really isn't much new here. The idea that Iraq could develop nuclear weapons while they were securely under our thumb is ludicrous, and suggests that most of the folks on Capital Hill who supported this, did so for other reasons.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
GeeS is offline  
post #33 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-28-2007, 02:27 PM Thread Starter
Administratoris Emeritus
 
GeeS's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 2021 SL770
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
Posts: 44,915
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 591 Post(s)
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
Just guessing what the committees heard was a set of information in conference and under guise of the Secrets Act and then they heard the WH Spin Cycle as much of the information was disseminated. Since we can assume that the ears that heard the Spin had the normal NeoCon/Democrat filters, half the committee would have found the information to be 100% accurate, leaving the Dems to sort through what they heard.
Right, which suggests that much of the evidence in question was gelatinous (ambiguity vs. certainty, rather than falsehood vs. truth) in nature, thus unlikely to have a dramatic impact on the outcome of the resolution.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
GeeS is offline  
post #34 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-28-2007, 03:03 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
They are only protected from libel, they have no protection for violating any statute in regards to treason. Again, what about the Republicans on the same panel? Whose fucking hands are bloody? And as far as the Nazi remark goes, the troops at Abu Garib were acting like a bunch of fucking Nazis.
It would have gone to trial. Evidence would have to be presented. Durbin could have made his case to the courts and American people.

If he was justified in his accusation then he would have carried the day because under those circumstances impeachment of Bush would have been a slam-dunk. To coin a phrase.

Look, wont you agree with me that his assertion is perhaps the most damning possible accusation that could be made against a President -- that he lied to get the nation into war? Durbin says he saw proof that it was a fabrication, a lie. I know that if it were me, I'd risk imprisonment for revealing secrets if I truly believed that the President had exceeded his Constitutional authority and put citizens in harms way based on a fabrication of evidence. I would consider it my sworn duty to "... support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all threats foreign AND DOMESTIC." Wouldn't you?

So what did he do? He shut up. Thus deciding that he was more important than his oath and the thousands of people who would die because of his silence.

You talk about Nazis, well here's a guy the Nazis would have loved. A legislator who knew better and chose silence.

Coward.

B

Last edited by Botnst; 04-28-2007 at 03:07 PM.
Botnst is offline  
post #35 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-28-2007, 03:39 PM
BenzWorld Member
 
Date registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 350
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I get it: Durbin is to Bush as, say, Himmler was to Hitler? Except, of course, Himmler never voted against Hitler.

Let's get all lathered up about someone who many of us wish had spoken up earlier, but continue to give a pass to the one who did the lying, did the manipulating, did the fear-mongering, and then pushed the button for war--without any thought to the consequences, and, by the way, all the while ignoring the recommendations of key military about just how many troops would be needed and just what equipment was required. Back in 2003, many of those now critical of Durbin were cheerleading for Bush and his idiotic war. Some, amazingly, still do.

Durbin speaks now because Tenet more or less has de-facto de-classified the stuff that Durbin felt he had to remain silent about.

If Durbin is a coward, what's Bush? What's Cheney?

Joe B.
Joe Bauers is offline  
post #36 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-28-2007, 03:58 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 2014 E250 Bluetec 4-Matic, 1983 240D 4-Speed
Location: USA
Posts: 9,257
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bauers
I get it: Durbin is to Bush as, say, Himmler was to Hitler? Except, of course, Himmler never voted against Hitler.

Let's get all lathered up about someone who many of us wish had spoken up earlier, but continue to give a pass to the one who did the lying, did the manipulating, did the fear-mongering, and then pushed the button for war--without any thought to the consequences, and, by the way, all the while ignoring the recommendations of key military about just how many troops would be needed and just what equipment was required. Back in 2003, many of those now critical of Durbin were cheerleading for Bush and his idiotic war. Some, amazingly, still do.

Durbin speaks now because Tenet more or less has de-facto de-classified the stuff that Durbin felt he had to remain silent about.

If Durbin is a coward, what's Bush? What's Cheney?

Joe B.
They aren't saying, but if Durbin is a a coward and is brought up on charges of treason, then it is a foregone conclusion that Bush and Cheney have to have already been impeached and replaced. The order of events here is to deal with the highest crime first. Durbin is confessing to his crime of having had evidence presented that could have proven the Bush Co case on WMD and Al-Qaeda in Iraq were false, which would have de-nutted Bush Co's case with Congress, before the fatal vote giving Bush Co the authority to send US troops to Iraq to protect us from those WMD and Al-Qaeda operatives who would soon have them and be shipping them to the US to attack us again.

The first thing that would have to be proven to bring a charge against Durbin is that the evidence in fact existed and was in fact conclusive. At that point the President and Vice President get impeached. Durbin's medicine, which would have to be administered to ensure his pattern of hiding behind some shield of inactivity for 5 years imposed on him by a question of security was debunked for the future, would be as the Congress would see fit to charge him with, so, it could be treason. Or it could be censure for being a stupid coward. Or it could be imprisonment for being complicit in the deaths of more than half a million people. But it would come after the President and Vice President, and any others discovered to have roles in the lie were proven guilty, as only then can you say the evidence he had was conclusive. Not gelatinous. Or even a lumpy gelationous mix of evidence........


Jim
JimSmith is offline  
post #37 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-28-2007, 04:11 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimSmith
They aren't saying, but if Durbin is a a coward and is brought up on charges of treason, then it is a foregone conclusion that Bush and Cheney have to have already been impeached and replaced. The order of events here is to deal with the highest crime first. Durbin is confessing to his crime of having had evidence presented that could have proven the Bush Co case on WMD and Al-Qaeda in Iraq were false, which would have de-nutted Bush Co's case with Congress, before the fatal vote giving Bush Co the authority to send US troops to Iraq to protect us from those WMD and Al-Qaeda operatives who would soon have them and be shipping them to the US to attack us again.

The first thing that would have to be proven to bring a charge against Durbin is that the evidence in fact existed and was in fact conclusive. At that point the President and Vice President get impeached. Durbin's medicine, which would have to be administered to ensure his pattern of hiding behind some shield of inactivity for 5 years imposed on him by a question of security was debunked for the future, would be as the Congress would see fit to charge him with, so, it could be treason. Or it could be censure for being a stupid coward. Or it could be imprisonment for being complicit in the deaths of more than half a million people. But it would come after the President and Vice President, and any others discovered to have roles in the lie were proven guilty, as only then can you say the evidence he had was conclusive. Not gelatinous. Or even a lumpy gelationous mix of evidence........


Jim
Yes!
Botnst is offline  
post #38 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-28-2007, 09:08 PM
BenzWorld Member
 
Date registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 350
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimSmith
They aren't saying, but if Durbin is a a coward and is brought up on charges of treason, then it is a foregone conclusion that Bush and Cheney have to have already been impeached and replaced. The order of events here is to deal with the highest crime first. Durbin is confessing to his crime of having had evidence presented that could have proven the Bush Co case on WMD and Al-Qaeda in Iraq were false, which would have de-nutted Bush Co's case with Congress, before the fatal vote giving Bush Co the authority to send US troops to Iraq to protect us from those WMD and Al-Qaeda operatives who would soon have them and be shipping them to the US to attack us again.

The first thing that would have to be proven to bring a charge against Durbin is that the evidence in fact existed and was in fact conclusive. At that point the President and Vice President get impeached. Durbin's medicine, which would have to be administered to ensure his pattern of hiding behind some shield of inactivity for 5 years imposed on him by a question of security was debunked for the future, would be as the Congress would see fit to charge him with, so, it could be treason. Or it could be censure for being a stupid coward. Or it could be imprisonment for being complicit in the deaths of more than half a million people. But it would come after the President and Vice President, and any others discovered to have roles in the lie were proven guilty, as only then can you say the evidence he had was conclusive. Not gelatinous. Or even a lumpy gelationous mix of evidence........


Jim
But you must mean that such a charge of treason applies to all members of the Intelligence Committee, without exception. The fact that the Republicans on the committee were interested in supporting a Republican President does not absolve them of guilt, correct? Durbin has opened his mouth, true, but if what he says is true, then all on the committee were privy to the information that showed the Bush war argument was nothing more than a propaganda campaign.

So your plan, Jim, if I understand you correctly, would be to impeach Bush/Cheney, then send to prison the entire Intelligence Committee for their complicity in the Bush/Cheney crime? And I assume that the House Intelligence Committee, too, is guilty of the same offense.

Joe B.
Joe Bauers is offline  
post #39 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-28-2007, 09:21 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 2014 E250 Bluetec 4-Matic, 1983 240D 4-Speed
Location: USA
Posts: 9,257
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bauers
But you must mean that such a charge of treason applies to all members of the Intelligence Committee, without exception. The fact that the Republicans on the committee were interested in supporting a Republican President does not absolve them of guilt, correct? Durbin has opened his mouth, true, but if what he says is true, then all on the committee were privy to the information that showed the Bush war argument was nothing more than a propaganda campaign.

So your plan, Jim, if I understand you correctly, would be to impeach Bush/Cheney, then send to prison the entire Intelligence Committee for their complicity in the Bush/Cheney crime? And I assume that the House Intelligence Committee, too, is guilty of the same offense.

Joe B.
Pretty much. They all held information back, if the information was convincing enough to impeach Bush and Cheney. If not, well, they are off the hook. Jim
JimSmith is offline  
post #40 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-28-2007, 09:27 PM
BenzWorld Member
 
Date registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 350
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimSmith
Pretty much. They all held information back, if the information was convincing enough to impeach Bush and Cheney. If not, well, they are off the hook. Jim
But have you not condemned Durbin on the fact that the information IS convincing enough? To call a man a coward would seem to be a strong indictment. Now, if I'm reading you correctly, you're hedging a tad.

Joe B.
Joe Bauers is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Mercedes-Benz Forums > Off-Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  • Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
     
    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page
    Display Modes
    Linear Mode Linear Mode



    Similar Threads
    Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
    The American People will finally be heard:Senate, House vote to end the war in Iraq FeelTheLove Off-Topic 28 04-30-2007 02:58 PM
    The knew president of Iraq looks like a wino FeelTheLove Off-Topic 30 07-26-2006 11:34 PM
    Who Benefited from the Iraq War? Shabah Off-Topic 42 12-17-2005 05:00 PM
    Beginning of the American Civil War? FeelTheLove Off-Topic 3 07-01-2005 11:03 AM
    Anti-Iraq War Soldiers form PAC, begin airing new ad against the War FeelTheLove Off-Topic 8 10-15-2004 12:02 PM

    Posting Rules  
    You may post new threads
    You may post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are On
    Pingbacks are On
    Refbacks are On

     

    Title goes here

    close
    video goes here
    description goes here. Read Full Story
    For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome