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post #1 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 04:56 PM Thread Starter
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So here’s some questions for you all:

So here’s some questions for you all:
Would the Allies have won WWII if the news coverage was just as biased (OK, let’s just say slightly slanted) as it is today?
Could Democracy have triumphed if the press and video media covered every casualty as they do in Iraq. Pick D-Day as an example: 57,200 dead and 173,000 wounded (allied).
This is a real, serious question.
I tend to think if that war was covered the way this one and Vietnam were covered, we would all be speaking German or Japanese............

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post #2 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 04:59 PM
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Excuse me, Iraq did not invade us! There was no Pearl Harbor
Are we speaking Vietnamese right now?
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post #3 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 05:01 PM
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Blame the media.

We won WWII because our president took a united nation into war against an enemy that had attacked us. You are too stupid to realize the opposite is what has happened in Iraq, and the press has had little to do with it, in a country awash in media of all persuasions.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #4 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
So here’s some questions for you all:
Would the Allies have won WWII if the news coverage was just as biased (OK, let’s just say slightly slanted) as it is today?
Could Democracy have triumphed if the press and video media covered every casualty as they do in Iraq. Pick D-Day as an example: 57,200 dead and 173,000 wounded (allied).
This is a real, serious question.
I tend to think if that war was covered the way this one and Vietnam were covered, we would all be speaking German or Japanese............
I don't really know whether and to what extent the news was biased in WWII, honestly. I think there was more censorship, and of course no TV coverage at all, it was mostly print and radio journalism then.

Certainly today NPR is felt biased towards one side and Fox News towards the other....

As for speaking German or Japanese today, I don't agree with you that it would have happened because of the nature of media coverage.

World War II was fought from the very beginning with ALL out national resolve,
a war footing and economy, and a DECLARATION OF WAR against Germany and Japan.

Contrast with Vietnam and Iraq, no declaration of war, instead flawed intgelligence about WMD, and the Gulf of Tonkin incident, America not attacked militarily as in Pearl Harbor, the Viet and Iraq war fought in escalation type steps, with the stated purpose of "bringing democracy" to nations with artificial borders, and a overwhelming popular support for these wars never existed

It is not the same thing, IMO. Media coverage is tangential, though the TV and internet does bring the horror of war right into your home, to see, live.

Jim
<--- superschnelle 300 hp 10:1 ECE euro HV, Hochverdichtung = high compression (11/2011) ... Wie im Freien Fall. Nur horizontal.


"I swear to god, it's like I live in a trailer of common sense, and stare out the window at a tornado of stupidity." >'='<
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post #5 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
So here’s some questions for you all:
Would the Allies have won WWII if the news coverage was just as biased (OK, let’s just say slightly slanted) as it is today?
Could Democracy have triumphed if the press and video media covered every casualty as they do in Iraq. Pick D-Day as an example: 57,200 dead and 173,000 wounded (allied).
This is a real, serious question.
I tend to think if that war was covered the way this one and Vietnam were covered, we would all be speaking German or Japanese............
Interesting question...
I'm sure that we would have still won WWII in 1945, but the lack of negative press coverage certainly ensured that the vast majority of civilians at home were totally behind the forces for the duration of the war. Unlike now, of course.

However, the war against the Axis was totally different to the later conflicts - Korea, Vietnam, Gulf 1, etc, in that Germany & Japan ended up as totally defeated nations. And following defeat they gladly accepted aid from the Allies and then worked hard to recover from the war. They did not continue to fight a guerilla war against the occupying troops as has occurred in Iraq.

I'm sure that there were some atrocities by the Allies during the 6 years of WWII - it stands to reason that with so many theaters there must have been. But in general these were never pursued by the press. One exception was when the Russians massacred thousands of their returned Cossack POWs at the end of the war.

Modern technology with troops sending home photo images by email has changed war news totally. Information is now instant, and it is hard to keep anything secure.

Had we known then about the D-Day losses, would we have faltered? I think not - the price of defeat was too terrible to contemplate, after all we had been through. I was a school-kid at the time, but it seems like yesterday.
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post #6 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
I tend to think if that war was covered the way this one and Vietnam were covered, we would all be speaking German or Japanese............
Japanese is an impossible language. I doubt an average Joe would even begin to comprehend the complexities and subtleties inherent in that language.

On a different note, German is a disciplined language that is best learnt by studying table of rules and rigorously following them.

In short, neither language is suited to the temperament of Americans so you need not to worry.

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post #7 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keyhole
Interesting question...
I'm sure that we would have still won WWII in 1945, but the lack of negative press coverage certainly ensured that the vast majority of civilians at home were totally behind the forces for the duration of the war. Unlike now, of course.

However, the war against the Axis was totally different to the later conflicts - Korea, Vietnam, Gulf 1, etc, in that Germany & Japan ended up as totally defeated nations. And following defeat they gladly accepted aid from the Allies and then worked hard to recover from the war. They did not continue to fight a guerilla war against the occupying troops as has occurred in Iraq.

I'm sure that there were some atrocities by the Allies during the 6 years of WWII - it stands to reason that with so many theaters there must have been. But in general these were never pursued by the press. One exception was when the Russians massacred thousands of their returned Cossack POWs at the end of the war.

Modern technology with troops sending home photo images by email has changed war news totally. Information is now instant, and it is hard to keep anything secure.

Had we known then about the D-Day losses, would we have faltered? I think not - the price of defeat was too terrible to contemplate, after all we had been through. I was a school-kid at the time, but it seems like yesterday.
I think the American public would accepted enormous losses if they had been in Afghanistan. The problem with Iraq is that we have no clear idea why we are there, only stupid generalities and platitudes. It is hard to see your son die for a platitude.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #8 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 07:28 PM
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There is also the issue of combatants. In WWII we had clear enemy combatants wearing a uniform and operating specific equipment. Intelligence said the platoon was over there...and we attacked them.

Vietnam and Iraq are conflicts fought against an unknown combatant. A child in a rice paddy. A dead baby rigged with explosives floating down a river. A W123 with TNT in the trunk. Civilian dress, civilian vehicles. Attack and run tactics. Surrender? No suicide attacks.
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post #9 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 08:17 PM
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Back your question up one step further. Had the media been more aggressive in 1938 and 1939 would we have moved in to help England quicker? Would we have, had we known about the camps or the systematic extermination of Jews taken arms up quicker that we did?

Once the war started we had daily reports. Edward R Murrow on top of the BBC's Bush House on Regents Street broadcasting the air-raids live. Then, as now, we did not show American deaths, however newsreels showed members of the Bataan Death march.

To this war:

This Administration made the ground rules as to what coverage would be allowed in Iraq. Much like in GW1 the media was used as a tool to show successes, to show tanks flying through the desert and by the carcasses of Iraqi units. This Administration utilized the media to show Shock and Awe to the widest audience. Daily press conferences, daily film of hits, laser guided bombs on target, all the power and might of the US Military. It was intended to be a “no brainer” “piece of cake” “45 day max” kinda war, just the thing to showcase our war on terror. And they used the media EVERY SINGLE DAY. Film at Eleven.

Then it went upside down. The lack of planning and the lack of an exit strategy and the lack of an Iraqi infrastructure to fill the vacuum. The daily press conferences stopped. The daily film of hits stopped. The media continued to do the same thing they had been doing from day one, using the ground rules set up when Iraq was a photo op for the War on Terror. The media didn’t change. Suddenly they became a voice for the enemy? “you are either for us or against us…”

It was not the media’s fault that a Civil War broke out. It was not the media’s fault that Abu Grab happened. It is not the media’s fault that we have not sent over our Cougars instead of 20 year old armorless Hmmvs. It is not the media’s fault that the Military is stretched so thin that tours have to be extended just to police a Civil War.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #10 of 83 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce R.
So here’s some questions for you all:
Would the Allies have won WWII if the news coverage was just as biased (OK, let’s just say slightly slanted) as it is today?
Could Democracy have triumphed if the press and video media covered every casualty as they do in Iraq. Pick D-Day as an example: 57,200 dead and 173,000 wounded (allied).
This is a real, serious question.
I tend to think if that war was covered the way this one and Vietnam were covered, we would all be speaking German or Japanese............
Bruce R:

This part of your post is incorrect:

" I tend to think if that war was covered the way this one and Vietnam were covered, we would all be speaking German or Japanese............"

Just no way Germany or Japan could win World War II after the USA entered it! There are two big oceans and the fact that we had all the resources to make airplanes, ships, guns and etc. In the long run it was a done deal.

However I agree with your comments about the news media, we cannot win this war in a CLEAN CIVILIZED WAY! We have to go in and kill, kill and kill!!! And we cannot do that with the news media now.
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