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post #41 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-20-2007, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with scientists receiving money from whatever source and using it to conduct research. We need more, not less. Let it be so. I want the oil companies to hire scientists to work on specific projects targeting the fundamental dogmae of climate and pollution. We need more of that, not less.

Just as on the other side I have no problem at all with EPA or any other gov agency, WWF, universities, trusts, Georg F-ing Soros or anybody else funding greenie scientists to target research at industrial pollutants.

Let the market place of ideas be rich and boistrous.

Damned if I want thought-police directing who should do what kind of research or like in Lomborg's case, determining what types of analysis are "correct".

For example, Piltdown improved science, not by providing important links, but by increasing scepticism and proving the necessity of independent confirmation of means, methods, data, analysis, results, discussion, and conclusions. Anybody who accepts any scientific precept or dogma or paradigm as irrefutably true is a religionist.

B
Bot, I agree with you completely with Corporations or Soros or anyone providing funding for independent research, or even specific, targeted research. My point with the group that I listed is that they have been funded by Exxon and others [though primarily by Exxon] –many for at least 15 years - purely to debunk Global Warming issues in the media or in government by obfuscation. If they were doing research and found contra findings, that would be one thing. That is not their funded mission.

I know several researchers who formerly worked at Exxon who are excellent scientists. I know others who are brilliant researchers at Ashland and Shell. I have found that those who work in unfettered research, whether working for coal, oil or energy companies are usually very responsible honest scientists. It is after their work gets up the ladder and buried or they get fired for going outside that you see the corruption of their companies [NOT the scientists in the labs]. Then you see the Fighting Obfuscators hired by Big Oil to cloud the issues in the media and in the government. These folks are no longer acting as scientists, rather acting the role of hired gun to try and shoot down information that is detrimental to their contract holder.

Now back to the convention center where there are gigawatts of power being burned to show how the broadcasting industry is taking a lead in teaching the world about Global Warming. The Irony Fairies are getting riled.

McBear,
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post #42 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-20-2007, 12:51 PM
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Bot, I agree with you completely with Corporations or Soros or anyone providing funding for independent research, or even specific, targeted research. My point with the group that I listed is that they have been funded by Exxon and others [though primarily by Exxon] –many for at least 15 years - purely to debunk Global Warming issues in the media or in government by obfuscation. If they were doing research and found contra findings, that would be one thing. That is not their funded mission.

I know several researchers who formerly worked at Exxon who are excellent scientists. I know others who are brilliant researchers at Ashland and Shell. I have found that those who work in unfettered research, whether working for coal, oil or energy companies are usually very responsible honest scientists. It is after their work gets up the ladder and buried or they get fired for going outside that you see the corruption of their companies [NOT the scientists in the labs]. Then you see the Fighting Obfuscators hired by Big Oil to cloud the issues in the media and in the government. These folks are no longer acting as scientists, rather acting the role of hired gun to try and shoot down information that is detrimental to their contract holder.

Now back to the convention center where there are gigawatts of power being burned to show how the broadcasting industry is taking a lead in teaching the world about Global Warming. The Irony Fairies are getting riled.
The upper echelons of corporations are like upper echelons of governments or of religions. Pointy-haired bureaucrats.

B
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post #43 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-20-2007, 10:54 PM
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The upper echelons of corporations are like upper echelons of governments or of religions. Pointy-haired bureaucrats.

B
a good hammer would fix all three

McBear,
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post #44 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-20-2007, 10:58 PM
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I believe Bot is saying let the chips fall where they may, anything else is arrogance.
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post #45 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-21-2007, 07:06 AM
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I believe Bot is saying let the chips fall where they may, anything else is arrogance.
If what you believe is true, then that would be arrogant of me. That is not at all unlikely, but on this particular issue I think you misunderstand my position.

It is my belief that the planet is warming. I am pretty nearly completely convinced that this is a significant trend, regardless of whether human beings are directly responsible or completely innocent in it's causes. Frankly, I think that the whole struggle concerning the degree of anthropogenic involvement is less important than are the likely consequences of a planetary warming trend. I do think it is extremely important that we discover the physical causes of global warming so that we can accurately predict the intensity and duration of it. Knowing the causes, intensity, and duration we can derive reasonable policies in anticipation of the predictions.

The absolutely best way to be certain that we have accurate and reliable physical models of the climate is through scientific skepticism. The way the system works is that entities that have a vested interest in the outcome of the research pony-up the funding. The research results get published and the results get shredded by opponents and inflated by proponents. Then a new model or test is developed which refines the previous model or test, resulting in incremental improvements in understanding.

The result is a constant sloshing of understanding between opposing camps. The camps themselves get eroded over time and new salients form. We are in the midst of that sloshing and it is unpleasant to people who want definitive answers, now. But that unpleasantness is itself a good thing. When science is in a turmoil all manner of new insights are likely to be developed in unexpected fields with great paradigm shifts. It's all good.

Anybody who claims to have the truth locked-away in their own pet theory is likely to be proven wrong during the next few years. We are in the process of successive refinement of approximations. What is slowly shifting toward each other are the maxima and minima of our understanding. We'll get there, it's just messy right now.

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