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post #11 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-17-2007, 05:31 PM
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Water vapor has a cooling effect. Try this experiment: on a hot sunny day, tell me what happens when you sit under a tree. Now go sit under a cloud.

Now go find two flasks. Put thermoters in each. Put dry ice in one. Stopper them. Record the temperture. Put them under a heat lamp. Remove them. Record the tempertures in each every minute. Which one retains heat the longest? Why?
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post #12 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-17-2007, 05:37 PM Thread Starter
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Try this experiment - read what scientists have to say on the matter.

NCDC: Greenhouse Gases

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOAA Scientists Who Know Their Shit
Water Vapor is the most abundant greenhouse gas in the atmosphere, which is why it is addressed here first. However, changes in its conentration is also considered to be a result of climate feedbacks related to the warming of the atmosphere rather than a direct result of industrialization. The feedback loop in which water is involved is critically important to projecting future climate change, but as yet is still fairly poorly measured and understood.

As the temperature of the atmosphere rises, more water is evaporated from ground storage (rivers, oceans, reservoirs, soil). Because the air is warmer, the relative humidity can be higher (in essence, the air is able to 'hold' more water when its warmer), leading to more water vapor in the atmosphere. As a greenhouse gas, the higher concentration of water vapor is then able to absorb more thermal IR energy radiated from the Earth, thus further warming the atmosphere. The warmer atmosphere can then hold more water vapor and so on and so on.
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post #13 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-17-2007, 05:48 PM
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By your logic, why isn't Seattle like Houston?
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post #14 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-17-2007, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
By your logic, why isn't Seattle like Houston?
Because the jetstream goes west to east, whipping cold Pacific air over a city that's significantly further north than one guarded on the west by a huge land mass.

I'd ask - by your logic - why isn't Newfoundland like Korea? But, the misunderstanding represented by your question kinda answers that for me.
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post #15 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-17-2007, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
Water vapor has a cooling effect. Try this experiment: on a hot sunny day, tell me what happens when you sit under a tree. Now go sit under a cloud.

Now go find two flasks. Put thermoters in each. Put dry ice in one. Stopper them. Record the temperture. Put them under a heat lamp. Remove them. Record the tempertures in each every minute. Which one retains heat the longest? Why?
You're comparing how water vapor behaves at sea level, with barometric pressure at 29.5 to water vapor in the lower to middle, even upper atmosphere? Water vapor in the middle to upper atmosphere can be indeed, a green house gas, depending on it's density and depth.

As for comparing cloud cover to tree shade, tree shade will hide the direct sunlight but the sun still heats the ground around it. Dense cloud cover will block the direct sun rays.

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post #16 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-17-2007, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
Try this experiment - read what scientists have to say on the matter.

NCDC: Greenhouse Gases
Quote:
:
Originally Posted by NOAA Scientists Who Know Their Shit
Water Vapor is the most abundant greenhouse gas in the atmosphere, which is why it is addressed here first. However, changes in its conentration is also considered to be a result of climate feedbacks related to the warming of the atmosphere rather than a direct result of industrialization. The feedback loop in which water is involved is critically important to projecting future climate change, but as yet is still fairly poorly measured and understood.

As the temperature of the atmosphere rises, more water is evaporated from ground storage (rivers, oceans, reservoirs, soil). Because the air is warmer, the relative humidity can be higher (in essence, the air is able to 'hold' more water when its warmer), leading to more water vapor in the atmosphere. As a greenhouse gas, the higher concentration of water vapor is then able to absorb more thermal IR energy radiated from the Earth, thus further warming the atmosphere. The warmer atmosphere can then hold more water vapor and so on and so on.
So any reason you decided to do the little edit of some of the important part of that description from the web site?

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post #17 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-17-2007, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
So any reason you decided to do the little edit of some of the important part of that description from the web site?
I think he's throwing out bait . . .

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post #18 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 04:40 AM
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If this is "bait" he must go trout fishing with a brick.

"As water vapor increases in the atmosphere, more of it will eventually also condense into clouds, which are more able to reflect incoming solar radiation (thus allowing less energy to reach the Earth's surface and heat it up)."

A little academic dishonesty there, Mr. Cigar? Why not just cut and paste word by word into whatever you like?

It is also unfortunate that we can no longer trust sources such as yours, an agency that is part of the US Department of Commerce. My guess, and this is not wild speculation as we have seen it over and over again in the Bush Administration, is that there is little scientific objectivity in anything they have to offer, and that if anyone on their staff tried to provide it, they would be summarily fired.

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 04-18-2007 at 04:55 AM.
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post #19 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 06:19 AM
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Come on, clouds increase the albido and clouds also trap heat under them. The causes of which factor overwhelms the other is extremely complex. It is a stupid understanding of science and of reason to select the facts to support a particular argument: It isn't science, it is polemics.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that it is a great improvement to argue about facts rather than the previous methodology of angry name-calling. But now would be a great opportunity to begin an exploration of the extraordinary complexity of modeling the physical processes that control the climate.

Or you can beat each can continue to beat each other senseless by selective use of facts.
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post #20 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-18-2007, 07:15 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
So any reason you decided to do the little edit of some of the important part of that description from the web site?
Brevity...I figured if anyone was interested enough to read the link, that would become evident in their responses.

Ed was right, I was essentially tossing out bait - it's usually convincing enough to get a couple of hits.
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