So the Democrats are going to get things straight, huh? - Page 7 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #61 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-16-2007, 08:31 PM
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It might also mean irrefutable evidence that extraordinary measures were taken to assure that the missing email messages remain irretrievable.

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post #62 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-16-2007, 10:50 PM
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You must also know that the White House is only 1/4 the equation. You still have both senate and house along with the Supreme Court before anything can become permanent law. The Democrats have dominated either one or both houses more than Republicans in the llast 40 years.
You are playing Faith Based Math again aren't you? You will note that I was responding to Cousin Brucie's comment:

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Originally Posted by brucer
Why should the Republicans do more to their own then the Democrate did while they were in charge for the previous fourty years?
Which is why I said:
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Originally Posted by mcbear
Um the Republicians have owned the White House for 26 of the past 40 years. Which means they have controlled the DoJ "at the pleasure..."
Now if I were simply trying to dissect who had the most power over the past 40 years, I would have not just looked at the President. I would probably looked at the makeup of the Executive Branch and the House then the Lobbying efforts that have owned most of Congress for much of that past 40 years.

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post #63 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-16-2007, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
Here's your argument set to music: My junket is red-hot, your junket ain't diddley-squat.
I agree completely.

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post #64 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-16-2007, 11:03 PM
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First confessions to early onset of erectile dysfunction (although I approve of your primary attempt to address it), and now drinking to excess. What's next? Jim
I think what I insinuated last night was that you were a better man than I if you could get it up for Tammy Faye Baker but like so many LIBS you twist the message around to the way you want it to read in your mind. Good Luck on that.
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post #65 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-17-2007, 06:18 AM
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Never works for me, Bot. "Officer, I missed the speed limit sign, and thought this was a 55mph zone, not a 35mph zone." Cha-Ching! Pay the fine and take the points. ...
Is a speeding ticket a criminal offense?
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post #66 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-17-2007, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by cmitch
Whether you're right, I'm right, GermanStar is right or Botnst, the fact is, whatever we think is moot. We just have to see what shakes out.
I still maintain that the missing emails are not prosecutable/will not be prosecuted unless evidence turns up a cover up of criminal activity. Criminal activity could be anything from lying under oath to a Grand Jury (we all know what they'll do to you for that) to outright law breakage of monumental proportions. While the firings of the prosecutors, in it's own right, may be legal, if anyone lied about it under oath, regardless of the legality of the firings, prosecution of the perjury could take place.
Aw golly, a freaking reasonable man.

B
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post #67 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-17-2007, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
Is a speeding ticket a criminal offense?
That depends on the State you live in or are caught in to be more precise. Read up on defending yourself against speeding and other traffic tickets. It may also depend on how far over the limit you are driving. Generally, in cases where speeding is a criminal vs. civil offense, along with the fine and points you get a criminal record.

Negligence is not an excuse. Ignorance, not being claimed here by the White House or the RNC or any of the individuals involved, is also not an excuse. Negligence can lead to prosecution in civil court when the negligent party causes damage to another. Doesn't get called "criminal negligence" because often no specific law has been broken. Negligence that results in a law being broken, and the type of offense, becomes criminal negligence. In the case of the missing emails the prosecutor will have some leeway in how this is viewed, but a systematic destruction of records involving more than 5 million records covered by the appicable laws is just not likely goiing to be viewed by any legal expert other than perhaps the last Justice or two appointed to the Supreme Court as a trivial offense - it likely qualifies as gross negligence. If the records are truly gone it would seem that their destruction was willful as well, since most email leaves a long enough tail that it can be resurected. That is a separate issue and concern from "criminal negligence" or gross negligence as willful destruction of records governed by such specific law concerning their preservation is no longer a result of negligence.

Yeah, we will find out what happens as this unfolds. But it is not looking good for anyone involved. Jim
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post #68 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-17-2007, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith
That depends on the State you live in or are caught in to be more precise. Read up on defending yourself against speeding and other traffic tickets. It may also depend on how far over the limit you are driving. Generally, in cases where speeding is a criminal vs. civil offense, along with the fine and points you get a criminal record.
...
Yeah, we will find out what happens as this unfolds. But it is not looking good for anyone involved. Jim
None of the factors your describe are absolute. Each has dependent clauses.

Therefore, drawing conclusions, given the facts in hand, is premature, to put it as gently as possible.

I'm betting that the best possible spin on this will be that it was due to incompetence of contract staff. Whoever holds the contract will be fired. Federal GS employees will get transferred. Nothing will change.

B
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post #69 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-17-2007, 02:02 PM
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I sure hope not, Bot. The Hatch Act has a lot of cumbersome BS from the days when you paid for phone calls and faxes by the drink and through the nose. Everything was long distance, and a Senator or House member could rack up ten thousand dollar phone bills, along with most members of the White House staff pretty easily each month. In the old days that was a conspicuous sum and to have taxpayers paying big dollars for the political staff work as well was repugnant.

Now the billing practices for the communications industry are typically based on unlimited use for heavy users, especially email (I can barely recall the old AOL days of paying by the minute) so there is no expense to the taxpayer. So, all email records in for all White House staff, and the President and Vice President, should be archived. It makes for an easy system to implement, avoids the expense of a witch hunt after the fact to the taxpayers, and lets get real, the laptops they use really don't care (get MacBook Pro's, at all of $3500 topped out, and buy one every year, or a new hard drive whenever you get to the 60% full point), the cost of backup hard drives is trivial (1 TB Fantom drive on Buy.com for under $350) and those kinds of costs are not what we taxpayers are worried about. That stuff is lost in the service contracts of the guys you want to see blamed (which will make their costs go up).

Yes, my view is speculation, and represents my opinion of how the chips are likely to fall. That much of your comment I accept. But your speculative words suggest there might be some underlying motive to have the Senate oversight committee take a friendly view of the affair and let it slide under the rug with slap on a contractor's wrist. I find that remotely possible, even at the rosy end of your spectrum of views on ths subject.

Also, there are at least two separate problems, maybe three. First the issue of negligence and whether or not it will be assessed as criminal by the Senate Committee digging into the lost emails. If they are eventually retrieved, this stays as negligence question and possibly a question of attempted obstruction depending on how satisfied he committee is with the emails they recover. If there is a way to 'splain it away on a contractor and he doesn't do time, that may work. Otherwise, no contractor is taking a hit for the team in the White House that is about to be leave, that gets him time in the slammer. Not willingly and if it isn't williing there will be more investigations and dirt to be parsed by the committee.

Next and independently will be whether or not there is evidence the emails are truly missing and cannot be retrieved because someone went through great pains to make it so. That becomes willful and premeditated law breaking. No longer negligence and will quickly get swirled into tampering with evidence in an attempt to coverup a potential crime. No contractor taking the rap on this voluntarily. And this committee is not likely to sweep that kind of dirt under the rug.

Next is, after being unable to retrieve the emails by tracing their paths from server to server in cyberspace, someone coughs up some that show criminal or other behavior of concern by White House staff - the problem becomes a real coverup investigation. NO contractor is going to take the rap for that as no contractor would undertake any such activity without being directed to do so, and faced with a long time in the slammer, the one who directed the event will be revealed in a plea bargain.

And then there is what to do about what is in the emails. Completely separate from the investigation of how they got lost, how thoroughly they got lost, why they got lost and who should be held responsible for losing them.

All speculation of course. But I don't see a Congressional mood of buying "Johnny the contractor did it" any more than the already ridiculed "the dog ate my homework" excuses being offered up so far. The worst case will be if Congress spends the rest of the Bush Administration investigating and then cites Rove for some pointless crap like jacking off in the oval office. So, at least make the law easier to comply with, and in this case the Presidential records should be preserved at the expense of complying with the Hatch Act, which is truly outdated today. It sets up the conditions for inadvertent and other kinds of fraud, investigations into these conditions and allegations, disrupts the normal business of running the government (not really efficient to begin with) at enormous cost to the taxpayer.

Jim
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post #70 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-17-2007, 02:23 PM
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You bring to mind an interesting question: Must alll Congressional emails be saved? Is it subject to FOIA?

Who watches the watchers?

B

PS I am a strict interpreter of the Hatch Act, in all cases. It is a good law and should be even more strictly enforced.
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