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post #21 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-12-2007, 09:50 AM
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Bush's danger comes from having the world's most powerful arsenal of weapons under his control, and being without the necessary skills to figure out where to aim them, or even if they should be aimed at anyone, and, then, if so, whether or not to tell the world about it in cowboy movie jargon, some form of English, or to just shut up about it. Iran poses a threat because they say lots of offensive and stupid things about Israel, and are apparently able to send certain know how and resources to the Shiite Iraqis, which keeps at least half the "insurgents" in operation. Who is doing the same for the other half?

But, given what Iran can do on purpose vs. what Bush can do with another bumbling misstep like his last one, yes, I would say Bush represents a greater danger to world peace than Iran both in the probability of initiating some disaster and the scope such a disaster can become. And, if we continue to ignore the Iranians and let them become further alienated, Bush may actually be partly responsible for a good deal of their future ability to mount threats and their activity in the next years. Kind of like he should be held responsible for letting the NK nut stew in his own radioactive juices until he had a nuke before he tried to negotiate a solution that was other than entirely on terms he dictated to NK.

But we understand in the black and white world you guys insist on sorting all events into so you can apply cowboy movie logic to identify and root for the good guys, you will find all this utterly incomprehensible. I mean, Iran has already been issued black hats, so how can Bush, in his white hat, ever be viewed as other than righteously right? Jim
Look, you may think that Bush's foreign policy is a complete disaster and you're entitled to that opinion. But he is not advocating the destruction of another nation, as Iran is with Israel and he is not flagrantly violating U.N. directives, as Iran is. To compare Bush with Iran's president defies credulity and makes you a wing nut.
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post #22 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-12-2007, 10:01 AM
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To compare Bush with Iran's president defies credulity and makes you a wing nut.
Dorf, Looks like you are figuring these fellows out pretty good.
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post #23 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-12-2007, 10:11 AM
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Look, you may think that Bush's foreign policy is a complete disaster and you're entitled to that opinion. But he is not advocating the destruction of another nation, as Iran is with Israel and he is not flagrantly violating U.N. directives, as Iran is. To compare Bush with Iran's president defies credulity and makes you a wing nut.
You may think Bush is not already destroying another nation, Iraq, and threatening to destroy others (Iran and Syria), or that when he sent US troops to invade Iraq that he was not defying the clear message of most of the UN's Security Council. You may even believe that in spite of the US veto power on the Security Council, the fact that no resolution was issued means we are not violating the UN's directives. It is all your right to your opinion.

I don't see Iran projecting their military around the world, invading countries for no valid reasons across the other side of the globe, and then beligerently barking orders for nearby countries to obey or face the consequences of pissing them off more. I see Bush doing this for the last four years. As for Israel, we have gone down this road before. Ask yourself why there is no real peace in the Middle East concerning Israel, and if you don't find Israel part of the problem you are not being realistic. I know they have white hats already, and Iran has black hats, so being objective will be a real challenge. But give it a try. Imagine how far they would fall from our consciousness if there was no Palestinian and Israeli problem that had permeated all of the Middle East. Jim
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post #24 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-12-2007, 10:12 AM
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Notice, Dorfman24, that I restrained myself in that last post and did not call you any names. Like a goosestepping, rightwing Nazi. Jim
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post #25 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-12-2007, 10:16 AM
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You may think Bush is not already destroying another nation, Iraq, and threatening to destroy others (Iran and Syria), or that when he sent US troops to invade Iraq that he was not defying the clear message of most of the UN's Security Council. You may even believe that in spite of the US veto power on the Security Council, the fact that no resolution was issued means we are not violating the UN's directives. It is all your right to your opinion.

I don't see Iran projecting their military around the world, invading countries for no valid reasons across the other side of the globe, and then beligerently barking orders for nearby countries to obey or face the consequences of pissing them off more. I see Bush doing this for the last four years. As for Israel, we have gone down this road before. Ask yourself why there is no real peace in the Middle East concerning Israel, and if you don't find Israel part of the problem you are not being realistic. I know they have white hats already, and Iran has black hats, so being objective will be a real challenge. But give it a try. Imagine how far they would fall from our consciousness if there was no Palestinian and Israeli problem that had permeated all of the Middle East. Jim
Notice I'm ignoring your tired reference to black and white hats and your assumption that I ignore complexity in the world.

Imagine how easy peace between Israel and the Palestinians would be if the latter would stop educating their children about the need to kill Jews and if the latter would stop killing innocent civilians in shopping centers in Tel Aviv.

Also, please show me one quote from President Bush where he threatens to destroy Syria or Iran.
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post #26 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-12-2007, 10:31 AM
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So, Bush is a greater threat than Iran? Wow. Simply wow.
i have to wow your wow.. he is not? WOW!



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post #27 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-12-2007, 10:35 AM
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Notice I'm ignoring your tired reference to black and white hats and your assumption that I ignore complexity in the world.

Imagine how easy peace between Israel and the Palestinians would be if the latter would stop educating their children about the need to kill Jews and if the latter would stop killing innocent civilians in shopping centers in Tel Aviv.

Also, please show me one quote from President Bush where he threatens to destroy Syria or Iran.
How 'bout "Yer either with us or agin us" in the WOT followed by identifying Iran as part of the "axis of evil" and then telling the world that military action against Iran "is not off the table" a few months ago? While the white hat he puts on for your benefit and his makes all this seem justified, from anyone else's perspective those were threats issued in general and specifically to Iran. Shock and Awe makes it clear military action is more likely to result in destruction of your country instead of a new construction project for your poor and hungry people. I am sure there are similarly specific threats associated with supporting Hezbolah and other Palestinian groups against Syria in the recent past. Jim
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post #28 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-12-2007, 10:44 AM
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By the way, what proof do you have that "if the latter would stop educating their children about the need to kill Jews and if the latter would stop killing innocent civilians in shopping centers in Tel Aviv," peace would break out? I am sure there are other demands that already exist, and would become the focus of much discussion and propaganda. Followed by more. I don't think Israel wants to allow their plight to fall into the back corners of the US consciousness. So, they won't. I don't see that your view of the situation recognizes what motivates either Israel or their antagonists. While you don't like the black and white analogy, until you show some sign of it being inaccurate, I will keep bringing it up. Jim
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post #29 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-12-2007, 01:53 PM
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How 'bout "Yer either with us or agin us" in the WOT followed by identifying Iran as part of the "axis of evil" and then telling the world that military action against Iran "is not off the table" a few months ago? While the white hat he puts on for your benefit and his makes all this seem justified, from anyone else's perspective those were threats issued in general and specifically to Iran. Shock and Awe makes it clear military action is more likely to result in destruction of your country instead of a new construction project for your poor and hungry people. I am sure there are similarly specific threats associated with supporting Hezbolah and other Palestinian groups against Syria in the recent past. Jim
It would be foolish of any president of the United States to say that military options are "off the table" - that's just good negotiating.

And we've spent more money in Iraq building schools and infrastructure than we've spent on bombs. And we spend more money in the world to feed the hungry and cure disease than the next 50 countries combined.
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post #30 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-12-2007, 01:56 PM
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By the way, what proof do you have that "if the latter would stop educating their children about the need to kill Jews and if the latter would stop killing innocent civilians in shopping centers in Tel Aviv," peace would break out? I am sure there are other demands that already exist, and would become the focus of much discussion and propaganda. Followed by more. I don't think Israel wants to allow their plight to fall into the back corners of the US consciousness. So, they won't. I don't see that your view of the situation recognizes what motivates either Israel or their antagonists. While you don't like the black and white analogy, until you show some sign of it being inaccurate, I will keep bringing it up. Jim
No, I don't have proof. But if one side is teaching their children to kill jews and convincing them that Israel has no right to exist, how is peace possible? My point does not purify Israel of its sins, but I am putting the responsibility on the Palestinians to stop teaching hatred. You cannot negotiate a just peace when one side refuses to admit that you have a right to anything.
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