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post #61 of 223 (permalink) Old 04-13-2007, 10:09 AM Thread Starter
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A few more examples...

Severe Storms Precede Nor`easter...

May have historical impacts...

Heavy Rain, dangerous winds set for NYC...

Watches/Warnings...

Don't believe everything you think
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post #62 of 223 (permalink) Old 04-13-2007, 11:55 AM
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What are you sayiing Bot? In this instance the data was cited out of context and, without some explanation by Jayhawk of how it supports his argument, it is misleading as presented. GS called him on it first. I see nothing of any greater value in misused data to make a point in a post, than a post with an opinion and no data.

If you are just taking a shot at old300D, it would seem you are verging on being guilty of the behavior he exhibits that you are complaining about. If you are suggesting misused data gains some kind of stature in a post that can only be countered with more data, I guess I don't follow that. Jim
One person presents data in support of his argument. Another person presents argument as though it were data.

Now if both people present data then we can begin the conversation of which data is the most useful for a given argument. But that track was not chosen so we are left with flawed data in support of a weak argument on one hand and unsupported argument on the other.

I would prefer it if everybody would bring out the data and let's argue about facts and what they mean, rather than "Who said what?" the childish method of schoolyards and pulpits.

B

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post #63 of 223 (permalink) Old 04-13-2007, 01:17 PM Thread Starter
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Here is another data-point from the Gorical himself--say hi Al...


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post #64 of 223 (permalink) Old 04-13-2007, 02:23 PM
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Too much fauna, not enough flora. The cure is simple.

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post #65 of 223 (permalink) Old 04-13-2007, 02:36 PM
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post #66 of 223 (permalink) Old 04-13-2007, 04:06 PM Thread Starter
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Too much fauna, not enough flora. The cure is simple.
Shoot Al?

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post #67 of 223 (permalink) Old 04-13-2007, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
One person presents data in support of his argument. Another person presents argument as though it were data.

Now if both people present data then we can begin the conversation of which data is the most useful for a given argument. But that track was not chosen so we are left with flawed data in support of a weak argument on one hand and unsupported argument on the other.

I would prefer it if everybody would bring out the data and let's argue about facts and what they mean, rather than "Who said what?" the childish method of schoolyards and pulpits.

B
I don't know Bot. To me you deal with things in some kind of order. I usually like to try to understand what the originator's post means before I try to counter it. In this case the originator posted some data that appeared to have no bearing on his point. Until he clarified that, by either acknowledging the data was not meaningful in the context of his post and provided new data, or established why the data was meaningful, merely posting more data to sustain an argument about a point no one understands is generally not useful.

Well, that didn't happen. But not solely due to old300D's posts. In fact the originator never addressed GS's comment. More data, without context would not necessarily help. Jim
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post #68 of 223 (permalink) Old 04-15-2007, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith
I don't know Bot. To me you deal with things in some kind of order. I usually like to try to understand what the originator's post means before I try to counter it. In this case the originator posted some data that appeared to have no bearing on his point. Until he clarified that, by either acknowledging the data was not meaningful in the context of his post and provided new data, or established why the data was meaningful, merely posting more data to sustain an argument about a point no one understands is generally not useful.

Well, that didn't happen. But not solely due to old300D's posts. In fact the originator never addressed GS's comment. More data, without context would not necessarily help. Jim
I guess I'm not making myself clear. My belief concerning the warming phenomenon is based on actual data that I have collected and analyzed that is relevant to one small area over limited time. I have read and in some cases studied what other folks have published over greater time scales and larger geography. Their observations fit my own. The result is that I have sympathy for a particular argument.

But I am not wedded to or invested in that perspective. I think the data are far too noisy to make a strong causal argument. I think the correlative argument is more compellingly presented by the side I favor than by the other side. That is also the overwhelming consensus of scientists who study climates and scientists whose research is intimate with weather and climate. But science is not a popularity poll. Science is about facts, theory, and parsimony of explanation. Until the proponents develop a theory that is robust, reliable and predictive it will not be convincing to people who believe alternative explanations. And that's how it should be.

The latest theory suggested for the global warming trend is astronomical. It is at this time, strictly correlation (and in my opinion, pretty compelling in that regard). It is up to climate scientists to account for the solar energy trend. I believe that there will be a reasonable physical explanation of the input and I believe it will happen within a year. It is so important that it simply cannot be ignored. Nor should it be.

Imagine for a moment that the warming trend is indeed, solar in origin. Does that mean that man has NOT affected the climate? Ah, that's the rub, isn't it? It may well be that the warming trend is solar in origin but made worse by human activity? We will never know if we don't work on it.

What I appreciate about Jayhawk's contribution is that at least he is looking at data. From what I have seen, the majority of politically active people don't give a damned about the data, they are looking for ways to sway public opinion to their side and global warming is just one more lever and wedge that professional party hacks will use to divide the public. Fuck'em.

B
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post #69 of 223 (permalink) Old 04-15-2007, 05:25 PM
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I can appreciate that Bot, as I find most of your argument fits my own view. I just can't see how misrepresenting data in an argument even by mistake, as very helpful. As a sign that someone may be looking for data, ok. But not presenting a meaningful point. Jim
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post #70 of 223 (permalink) Old 04-15-2007, 06:22 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimSmith
I can appreciate that Bot, as I find most of your argument fits my own view. I just can't see how misrepresenting data in an argument even by mistake, as very helpful. As a sign that someone may be looking for data, ok. But not presenting a meaningful point. Jim
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