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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 09:40 AM
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You want a real kick, from the MB "Weapons of Mass Destruction" thread:


Zeitgeist
Kraft durch Schadenfreude

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Independence, WA
Posts: 1724
If like me, you folks have a principled problem with
the unmeritorious receiving public funds, then it
seems we should focus our attentions on those that
drain the most from the public coffers. Social welfare
programs represent a small percentage of total
federal expenditures, and the 'unworthy' subset that
'game' those programs represent an even more
minute trickle of overall funds.

We need look no further than the obscenely bloated
pentagon budget, where massive amounts of public
largesse are squandered on a daily basis, and in ever
greater abandon with each new foreign misadventure
to which we embark--the privatization of military
contracting in Iraq is a case study in waste, fraud
and abuse taken to new heights of disregard for the
public interest.

We also need look no further than the absurd pork
projects each and every congressional committee
member throws into an omnibus appropriations bill,
budgeting astronomical amounts to personal 'vanity'
projects that also disregard and distort the public
interest.

I guess it's human nature to sieze on an easy target
and direct our collective ire at those least able to
defend, or separate themselves from the truly bad
characters within their midst. Shame on us, not
them.
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06-06-2004 07:31 PM








Botnst
Clearly confused
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Lafayette LA
Posts: 4716
I guess the degree to which largesse is squandered
on misadventure is to some extent dependent
whether one belives an adventure is "mis" or not.

Thus, I have no doubt whatsoever that there is
cupidity by malefactors receiving public funds
intended for supporting reconstruction in Iraq. Those
guys should be hunted down and prosecuted.

However, the adventure itself is well-conceived and
is moving right along according to the timetables
revealed last year at about this time.

Thus, the application of funds is appropriate and
useful. Those who misapply the funds allocated need
to be prosecuted. whenever found.

B
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06-06-2004 07:42 PM









Zeitgeist
Kraft durch Schadenfreude

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Independence, WA
Posts: 1724
I guess I'm just more fiscally conservative than you
foreign policy tax n' spend liberals.
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'87 300 TD 198k -- "This one goes to eleven"
'78 300D 245k(?)
'73 220D 167k(?)
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06-06-2004 07:56 PM








KirkVining
Right about WMDs

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1981
quote:

Originally posted by Botnst
I guess the degree to which
largesse is squandered on
misadventure is to some extent
dependent whether one belives an
adventure is "mis" or not.

Thus, I have no doubt whatsoever
that there is cupidity by malefactors
receiving public funds intended for
supporting reconstruction in Iraq.
Those guys should be hunted down
and prosecuted.

However, the adventure itself is
well-conceived and is moving right
along according to the timetables
revealed last year at about this
time.

Thus, the application of funds is
appropriate and useful. Those who
misapply the funds allocated need
to be prosecuted. whenever found.

B



Yes, yes the timetable. Driven by our desire to free
the Iraqi people, of course. I would be the last one to
suspect that it has anything to do with the November
election. Of course, post poning raising the debt
ceiling, so we can borrow even more money to pass to
Bush's Halliburton buddies, being postponed until after
Nov2 also has nothing to do with the election, and of
course, postponing asking for another approproation
to cover cost overruns in Iraq has nothing to do with
the elction. Heck, why doesn't the government just go
home until after Nov 2 ? Better idea - how about the
voters sending them all home for good.
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Botnst
Clearly confused
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Lafayette LA
Posts: 4716
Every politician except the first Dubyah (Washington)
have been driven by political considerations. This one
is no different.

B
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CONT'd
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 09:42 AM
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CONT'd


dculkin
Senior Member
Registered: Feb 2002
Location:
Posts: 701
Here they are! Or should I say, here they were?
I feel so much safer now.

Inspectors: Iraq Weapons Sites Destroyed

Full text:

Inspectors: Iraq Weapons Sites Destroyed

By EDITH M. LEDERER, Associated Press Writer

UNITED NATIONS - A number of sites in Iraq known
to have contained equipment and material that could
have been used to produce banned weapons and
long-range missiles have been either cleaned out or
destroyed, U.N. weapons inspectors said Monday.

The inspectors' report said they didn't know whether
the items, which had been monitored by the United
Nations, were at the sites during the U.S.-led war in
Iraq.

U.N. inspectors were pulled from Iraq just before the
war began in March 2003 and the United States has
refused to allow them to return, instead deploying its
own teams to search for weapons of mass
destruction.

"It is possible that some of the materials may have
been removed from Iraq by looters of sites and sold
as scrap," the U.N. Monitoring, Verification and
Inspection Commission said in its quarterly report to
the U.N. Security Council.

UNMOVIC said its experts and a team from the
International Atomic Energy Agency, which was
responsible for dismantling Iraq's nuclear program,
were jointly investigating items from Iraq that were
discovered in a scrap yard in the Dutch port of
Rotterdam.

Through photographs taken during an initial IAEA
investigation, UNMOVIC said it discovered that SA-2
engines used in Iraq's Al Samoud 2 banned missile
program were among the scrap.

Commission experts examined one missile engine at
the site and discovered from the serial number that it
had been tagged by U.N. inspectors in the past and
had not been declared as having been fired.

Representatives at the scrapyard indicated that
between five and a dozen similar engines had been
seen there in January and February, and that more
could have passed through the yard unnoticed, the
report said.

Company staff said other items made of stainless
steel and other corrosion-resistant metal alloys
bearing the inscription "Iraq" or "Baghdad" had been
observed in shipments delivered from the Middle
East since November 2003, it said.

UNMOVIC experts examined a number of items with
a portable metal analyzer and determined that they
were composed of heat-resistant inconel and
titanium — both subject to monitoring because of
their possible dual-use in legitimate civilian activities
and banned weapons production, the report said.

Despite cooperation from the Netherlands and the
company, UNMOVIC said it wasn't possible to
determine how many engines and how much other
material previously subject to monitoring in Iraq may
have been sent out of the country. It said its
investigation was continuing.

The report said high-resolution satellite photos had
detected that some sites subject to UNMOVIC
monitoring had been cleaned up and equipment and
material had been removed.

"In other areas, whole buildings that had previously
contained equipment and materials subject to
monitoring had been completely dismantled," it said.

The report showed satellite photos of a storage site
in Shumokh, about than 10 miles northwest of
downtown Baghdad, taken in late May 2003 and late
February 2004.

UNMOVIC said that during the period between the
photos, scrap items and other material was removed
from one area and several buildings were
demolished.

UNMOVIC spokesman Ewen Buchanan said the
Shumokh site and the adjacent Ibn Al-Batyr facility
contained biological, chemical, and missile-related
items subject to U.N. monitoring. These included
fermenters, a freeze drier, distillation columns, parts
of missiles, and a 130-gallon "jacketed reactor
vessel" which could be used in biological or chemical
weapons production, he said.

"All sorts of sites seem to have been systematically
dismantled, and it's not clear to us what has
happened to items and material that was subject to
U.N. monitoring," Buchanan said. "It creates a
headache in trying to keep an accurate picture of
what happened to everything."

The report noted that the U.S. inspection team — the
Iraq Survey Group now led by UNMOVIC's former
deputy director Charles Duelfer — has not provided
the United Nations with any official information on its
work or the results of its investigations.

Nonetheless, UNMOVIC said it was evaluating Iraq's
procurement network during the period from 1999 to
2002 when U.N. inspectors were not allowed to
return and had discovered a sophisticated network to
obtain foreign materials, equipment and technology.

"To date, UNMOVIC has found no evidence that these
were used for proscribed chemical or biological
weapon purposes," it said.
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dculkin
Senior Member
Registered: Feb 2002
Location:
Posts: 701
Last time I went on a scaffold, I cracked two ribs and
tore cartilage in my knee. I had an extra walk board,
but instead of either leaving it on the ground or
setting it squarely on the scaffold, I set it half on and
half off and went on with my work. Predictably, my
booby trap got me. Even before I put my weight on
it, I knew it was going to hurt. I cussed myself the
whole way down. I was glad there was noone there
to see it.

In Iraq, instead of a scaffold or a swamp, we had a
weakened, paranoid dictator who may or may not
have kept his WMD. Now, the dicator is gone, but we
can't account for the WMD he used to have. Is
anybody safer as a result? Dunno. I think not.
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KirkVining
Right about WMDs

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1981
If they were there why didn't we send enough troops
to secure the place? I have read reports that
Saddam's arsenals sat unguarded for months
because we did not have enough troops to guard
them. We seemed to have only enough troops to
secure the oil facilities and the capital. It would seem
that that is beyond a gross miscalculation, given the
level of satellite technology. The conclusions that
could be drawn here are not pretty:

1) There were WMDs, and we did not send enough
troops to secure them, and they have been carried
off who knows where.

2) There were not any, and we new it.

3) We thought they were, but their wasn't any

Take your pick: utter incompetance or willfully
misleading the American people.
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dculkin
Senior Member
Registered: Feb 2002
Location:
Posts: 701
quote:

Originally posted by KirkVining
If they were there why didn't we
send enough troops to secure the
place?...

Because Rumsfeld is a military genius who is
remaking our military to be smaller, faster, more
flexible, yadda, yadda, yadda.

I would feel better about Rumsfeld if he wasn't so
arrogantly dismissive of people who question his
tactics. Were he as smart as he thinks he is, he
would know that he doesn't have all the answers.
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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 09:43 AM
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CONT'd



KirkVining
Right about WMDs

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1981
Rumsfeld passes out that remaking the army crap,
but the war in Iraq was just an old-style war of
occupation. The same **** the Nazis did in Poland,
the Japanese did in China, the Russians did in
Eastern Europe, is what we are doing in Iraq. The
only difference is, we botched it with Rumsfeld "new
kind of thinking", which is a theory appropriate for a
different klind of war. Gen Shenseki, the guy who
was smarter then him that he fired, knew this. He
was fired for was giving him the estimate of "several
hundred thousands troops" being required to
successfully secure Iraq, facts not conjured up by
Shensiki, but known facts of military practice.

Rumsfeld's always been a dope. He wraps himself in
laurels of victories against some of the sorriest
opponents we have ever fought, and the American
populace bought that bull****. The rightwingers still
love to talk about our "brilliant victory" in Iraq,
where most of the time we were shooting troops who
were running away. These pussies left behind
unguarded warehouses and arsenals full of every
kind of bomb, and we never even sent anyone to
secure them. Now the insurgents, who seem to have
enough guts to actually fight someone occupying
their country, use what they looted from these
unguarded arsenals to kill our guys. Absolutely
brillant planning. Yea right.

If Rummy wants "a new kind of war" why doesn't he
prosecute it in Afganistan and Pakistan, where the
terrorists who want to kill us in our own homeland
are now planning their next strike against us? Its an
area appropraite for mobile surprise attack, high tech
weapons and surgical strike agaist small bands of a
dangerous enemy. Why not? Because our army is
stupidly tied up in Iraq. The war in Iraq is a stupid
waste waged by greedy corporate backed idiots.
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Botnst
Clearly confused
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Lafayette LA
Posts: 4716
Occupation is different from war. It's like this, war is
a military matter and occupation is more a policing
matter.

The objectives are different. In war, the objective is
to destroy the enemies ability to make war against
you. We did that in Afghanistan and Iraq so quickly
that it surprised everybody, encluding Pentagon
planners. Why did that surprise them? Because
nobody had ever fought a war like it. The battle
tactics and strategy were wholly new because the
weapons systems were just off the design table--
nobody had ever conducted a war in which so many
untested weapons systems had played such a
dominant role.

Also the rapid movement of mechanized forces was
without precedent. Couple that with the extreme
lethality of weapons systems against Iraq's largely
WWII systems and tactics and there was a perfect
rout.

But because it was a war and because so many
systems and tactics were untried, nobody could
foresee the outcome with any accuracy. Recall that
the former head of NATO, Gen Wesley Clark, was
convinced we were stopped by storms giving Iraqi
military a chance to consolidate their forces and
mount a defense.

Well, Clark was wrong. He may as well have gotten
intellligence the same way we did: Baghdad Bob.

Occupation is a less clearcut mission. It could vary
from preparation for colonization or annexation like
we did the Philipines during the Spanish American
War to the way we treated Japan and Germany
following WWII to what we did in Korea to what we
did at the end of GW I.

I think the closest model is the Germany/Japan
model, except that those two countries were
unquivocally and utterly defeated. Iraq was merely
decapitated so lots of folks, including most of the
military, were largely unaffected by the war or the
surrender.

This is an unprecedented type of victory and an
unprecedented type of occupation. That it not flow
evenly should hardly be a surprise.

Aside from getting greater French and German
military involvement, what would Jean Forbes Kerry
do differently?

B
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dculkin
Senior Member
Registered: Feb 2002
Location:
Posts: 701
quote:

Originally posted by KirkVining
Rumsfeld passes out that remaking
the army crap, but the war in Iraq
was just an old-style war of
occupation...

That is exactly right. These supposed "conservatives"
act like everything has changed and that none of the
old rules apply. Rumsfeld is using the 9/11-changed-
everything approach because he knows that noone
would buy his radical proposals under what used to be
normal circumstances.
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CONT'd







dculkin
Senior Member
Registered: Feb 2002
Location:
Posts: 701
quote:

Originally posted by Botnst
/...That it not flow evenly should
hardly be a surprise...

Really? Even though there were many who predicted
the problems we are now having? Shinsecki (sp?),
comes to mind. Our problems may have surprised
Wolfowitz and Rice, but they seem almost inevitable to
me, especially when I use my 20-20 hindsight.
Last edited by dculkin on 06-08-2004 at 02:29 PM
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narwhal
Senior Member
Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Deep South
Posts: 1911
quote:

Originally posted by dculkin
I would feel better about Rumsfeld if
he wasn't so arrogantly dismissive of
people who question his tactics.
Were he as smart as he thinks he is,
he would know that he doesn't have
all the answers.



OMG, I can't believe this quote just made it into this
thread. Replace Rumsfeld with <mercedesshop
armchair philosopher of the moment>.

Thanks! Now I will never have to actually reply to one
of these repetative threads again!!! Just cut and
paste.
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06-08-2004 03:41 PM








dculkin
Senior Member
Registered: Feb 2002
Location:
Posts: 701
quote:

Originally posted by narwhal
OMG, I can't believe this quote just
made it into this thread. Replace
Rumsfeld with <mercedesshop
armchair philosopher of the
moment>.

Thanks! Now I will never have to
actually reply to one of these
repetative threads again!!! Just cut
and paste.

I say that's boloney. In support of my claim, I refer
to Rumsfeld's recent appearance on one of the
Sunday morning shows. The host said that the
administration claimed before the war that Saddam
was an imminent threat. Rumsfeld put on his best
smug smirking expression and said they never said
any such thing and he did not know how that
allegation became part of the folk lore and it was all
just so silly. The host then played the video of
Rumsfeld making that exact claim, in precisely the
same words. So, I say he differs from us armchair
foolosophers in two ways: 1) he really is a smug
prick; and 2) he is Secretary of F'ing Defense. His
arrogance affects the whole country. I don't see any
danger of us foolosophers having such an impact,
even if we are arrogantly dismissive.
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Botnst
Clearly confused
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Lafayette LA
Posts: 4716
Rumsfeld's press conferences are the most
entertaining show that comes out of Washington. I'd
rather have an arrogant Dec Def than a timid one.

The public personnas should be the following:
Arrogance in a Sec Def. Put modesty and selflessness
in State and Labor. Put tree-hugging greenie Earth
Mother in Interior. Squinty-eyed Ebenezer Scrooge in
OMB and put likeable magnanimity in as president.

Behind closed doors, let the secs argue and cajole and
make deals and twist arms. When a decision is made,
let them all shut up and accept it. Let the president be
a good listener and a steadfast decider.

Bot
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06-08-2004 08:38 PM









KirkVining
Right about WMDs

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1981
Arrogance and hubris lead to stupid decision making.
Rumsfled is an utter case in point. The fact that we
had miltary police brigrades throwing gang bang
parties while on duty is symptomatic of a general
breakdown of military discipline under his watch. His
mis-estimate of troop strengths needed to occupy Iraq
led to our guys getting killed, as did his overoptimistic
view of the reaction of the Iraqi people which led to an
underestimation of armour requirements, again
getting our people killed. An arrogant son of a bitch
who gets people killed is not my idea of a Secretry of
Defense.
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 10:13 AM
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so much time and effort FTL..
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst

Botnst
Clearly confused
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Lafayette LA
Posts: 4716
Rumsfeld's press conferences are the most
entertaining show that comes out of Washington. I'd
rather have an arrogant Dec Def than a timid one.

The public personnas should be the following:
Arrogance in a Sec Def. Put modesty and selflessness
in State and Labor. Put tree-hugging greenie Earth
Mother in Interior. Squinty-eyed Ebenezer Scrooge in
OMB and put likeable magnanimity in as president.

Behind closed doors, let the secs argue and cajole and
make deals and twist arms. When a decision is made,
let them all shut up and accept it. Let the president be
a good listener and a steadfast decider
.

Bot
This is priceless. Is GW reading BWOT or is it just conicidence that Bot tags him the "decider" in 2004?

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 10:30 AM
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And the worms shall come out of thy rotten bodies
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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 11:10 AM
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Long before the apathy and indifference set in

That was way back before I figured out the utter futility of "debating" with freeper's reapers.
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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 07:03 PM
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There is so much more.
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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanStar
This is priceless. Is GW reading BWOT or is it just conicidence that Bot tags him the "decider" in 2004?
That post is beyond ironic, to the point of being iconic.
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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maine_coon
so much time and effort FTL..
There was nothing to it. Someone on the inside slipped me a download. For those of you who do not wish anymore of your writings exposed, please contact me via PM on where to send the check.
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