Looks like we may invade Iran next..... - Page 28 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #271 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by old300D
I never believed any of it. But Bot apparently does.
The fact that someone disagrees with you does not make them biased. The personal invective is flying here..."goose stepping," FTL reacting to a counter argument with "oh fuck you." Come on, people.
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post #272 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear
Failure to provide information is hardly a reason to invade a country, kill over 500,000 of its citizens, destroy its infrastructure, allow terrorists to build camps within its borders and occupy it for half a decade [so far].
Except that the UN made explicitly clear in every one of its resolutions that Iraq, not anyone else, was responsible for complying.
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post #273 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by elau
It did not matter whether Saddam told the truth or not. Bush was going to screw him no matter what. "He tried to assassinate my Daddy". Remember that?

The real criminal; OBL, was pardoned on 9/12. Someone had to be a scapegoat. Or the press would eat him up and spit him out. Iraq was an easy target, except your boy is too stupid and mishandled such a cherry pick.

The whole fiasco, with our tax dollars, for personal vendetta. Who is the bigger criminal here?

Frankly, impeachment is too easy a walk in the park for such criminal. Firing squad is more fitting.
I'm beginning to love Elau. Apparently, Bush said (and I quote) "he tried to assssinate my daddy." And now, not only does Esau (the pacifist) endorse mass murder and famine for law and order, he advocates firing squad executions for heads of state with whom he disagrees.
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post #274 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
Oh, fuck you.
Now that is high level debate. FTL is trying hard to pursuade me.
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post #275 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by dorfman24
Except that the UN made explicitly clear in every one of its resolutions that Iraq, not anyone else, was responsible for complying.
If we can expect responsible behavior from Iraq, then Iraq and the rest of the UN membership should be able to expect responsible behavior from us. And, frankly, what we did was far and away more irresponsible than what Saddam was doing at the time we invaded. Unless, of course, you whitewash us "white" and color Saddam in "black" and then, by god, it is just obvious. We're right and he's wrong.

Meanwhile the Taliban leadership and Ossamma elude us in Afghanistan. And now, still without having done any serious damage to the Taliban or Ossamma, we are getting ready to teach those Iranians about black and white next. Jim
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post #276 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dorfman24
Now that is high level debate. FTL is trying hard to pursuade me.
Read Bot's diatribe he responded to, it was more eloquent, perhaps, but it was a similar message. Bot didn't like FTL's technique of reframing the argument. Yet it is a technique he employs all the time. At least FTL was to the point. Jim
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post #277 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith
If we can expect responsible behavior from Iraq, then Iraq and the rest of the UN membership should be able to expect responsible behavior from us. And, frankly, what we did was far and away more irresponsible than what Saddam was doing at the time we invaded. Unless, of course, you whitewash us "white" and color Saddam in "black" and then, by god, it is just obvious. We're right and he's wrong.

Meanwhile the Taliban leadership and Ossamma elude us in Afghanistan. And now, still without having done any serious damage to the Taliban or Ossamma, we are getting ready to teach those Iranians about black and white next. Jim
Thanks, Jim for bringing us full circle. I do not believe that we should (or will) invade Iran. As for black and white (your favorite catch phrase) I do not think that making moral judgements makes me a "black and white" adherant. Saddam Hussein (despite his charms in killing his own people, which probably earns him Elau's admiration) invaded Kuwait and raped its women, used chemical weapons on his own people and the soldiers of Iran, blew up the oil lines in his own nation, causing an ecological disaster, signed a ceasefire, broke it repeatedly, ignored the demands of the international community, paid suicide bombers' families in Israel, associated with terrorist groups (I'm not linking him to 9/11)...
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post #278 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith
Read Bot's diatribe he responded to, it was more eloquent, perhaps, but it was a similar message. Bot didn't like FTL's technique of reframing the argument. Yet it is a technique he employs all the time. At least FTL was to the point. Jim
I'm not sure how you can say FTL was to the point. Here is what I wrote several pages ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dorfman24
Originally Posted by dorfman24
I don't think I'm being silly at all. If you believe that U.N. Security Countil resolutions have the force of law - which I am inferring that you do - then the U.N.'s determination that Iraq was in violation of the ceasefire puts Iraq in a state of war with the other signatories of that ceasefire. My question went to the point of whether there was any other resolution which contradicted the resolutions I have already cited.
Here is what FTL wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FTL
No, what you are really saying is that the United States has some power over the UN, that we get to call the shots and tell the rest of the world what's law and what is not. They, on the other hand, refused to give us permission to invade Iraq and refused to form a coalition to aid our efforts. Yet you someone assert that we were carrying out their wishes, an idea as absurd as the rest of your drivel.
I said nothing of the kind. Nor have I ever called someone's opinion on this page "drivel," which says more about FTL and his opinion of others than it does about the positions he holds.
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post #279 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dorfman24
Thanks, Jim for bringing us full circle. I do not believe that we should (or will) invade Iran. As for black and white (your favorite catch phrase) I do not think that making moral judgements makes me a "black and white" adherant. Saddam Hussein (despite his charms in killing his own people, which probably earns him Elau's admiration) invaded Kuwait and raped its women, used chemical weapons on his own people and the soldiers of Iran, blew up the oil lines in his own nation, causing an ecological disaster, signed a ceasefire, broke it repeatedly, ignored the demands of the international community, paid suicide bombers' families in Israel, associated with terrorist groups (I'm not linking him to 9/11)...
Ahhh, but we were attacked on 9-11. Without the 9-11 attack it is highly unlikely a Bush proposal to depose Saddam, and no one is arguing Saddam was not a mean spirited, dastardly dictator who deserved to be deposed by his own people, would have gone very far. There is just not a color black enough to paint him with to have made the Congress go along with that idea.

So, we got into a posture of attacking Iraq in response to being attacked by Al-Qaeda on 9-11-2001, who was holed up in Afghanistan, kind of taking up residence there at the pleasure of the Taliban. We, in my opinion, should have taken several hundred square miles around the last known whereabouts of Ossamma on 9-12-2001, and applied an unrelenting, inescapable flattening and stirring of the first thirty or so feet of earth, from above and called it a day. I think a nuke was actually warranted, and that topic has been debated or ridiculed here in the past. I just don't see the difference in killing several hundred thousand people instantly or over 5 or 6 years. But a massive and continuous bombing episode with conventional weapons that was engineered to preclude Ossamma's escape the afternoon of 9-12-2001 would have likely got the job done. But, we got into the posture of invading Iraq by cherry picking intelligence data from all sorts of sources, treating them as equally credible when they supported the case, then not even mentioning the data that didn't even from the same sources or more credible ones, and thumping the war drum and posting the terror alert colors and talk of mushroom clouds being the imminent danger of not attacking that evil man, Saddam and his depraved sons.

Instead of making an effective attempt to vaporize Ossamma, and then, if we had evidence he escaped, following the retreat of Al-Qaeda mercilessly wherever it took us, since we had already declared from the lips of the Decider that if you gave Ossamma and his cohorts safe harbour, you just became an Al-Qaedista in our view, and therefore deserved to die, and capturing or killing him, we went off on a tangent. Iraq. And left Ossamma to live in the badlands on the Afghan-Pakistan border. For the next 5 years. Now the Taliban is back and we are in for another round of fighting there with a more sophisticated, suicide bombing and IED firiing, insurgent-like, fighter we trained in Iraq. It is not looking good for the white hats there.

So, if you want to advocate that America become the world's cop and depose bad guys as a favor to the local populations of such regimes, I think you should have the idea brought up in Congress, debated, and voted on, like it is supposed to be done. If Congress agrees we should be the world cop and we implement some evaluation process to identify who we will be deposing each week, fine, we go off and do it. But to purposely lie about WMD and hype all this stuff about how bad Saddam was to his own people, how he was an imminent threat to the US, all to get us mired in this mess so we can be manipulated into becoming that world cop, without having that up front honest and open debate on the subject, is, well, treason.

Jim
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post #280 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dorfman24
I'm not sure how you can say FTL was to the point. Here is what I wrote several pages ago:



Here is what FTL wrote:


I said nothing of the kind. Nor have I ever called someone's opinion on this page "drivel," which says more about FTL and his opinion of others than it does about the positions he holds.
yeah, FTL says for you what you won't say, but is fundamental to your logic. If the UN is all that what you wrote, and the UN doesn't issue a resolution agreeing invading Iraq is necessary, the US has no special UN standing to declare its interpretetation of events is the only one that counts, and can then unilaterally authorize an invasion of Iraq to uphold UN resolutiions, no matter how many of them and how many nations signed them, and declare the invasion is authorized by the UN.

The first Gulf War was handled without relying on all this unilateralism and set a precedent that the present Bush Administration ignored, which is the bone of contention. A series of UN resolutions, culminating in UN Resolution 668 passed on November 29, 1990 that authorized the use of force, were obtained through diplomatic efforts by the first President Bush's administration. That Resolution was issued because it was felt the Security Council needed to endorse the interpretation that Iraq had not met the demands of prior UN resolutions on the subject, most notably UN Resolution 660, that demanded Iraq had to get out of Kuwait, or else, and had not responded favorabley to any subsequent Resolutions. The specific sequence of events were to impose sanctions and do a lot of other seemingly meaningless sabre rattling for months. But in that time a coalition of UN sanctioned forces led by the US were amassed in Saudi Arabia. Plans were laid out. Equipment to carry out those plans was brought in, and troops were trained while diplomatic efforts were pressed. When we decided to enter Kuwait and then Iraq, we were reasonably well prepared and we had the support of not just the Security Council, we had the Arab League supporting us. Pretending all that did not establish a precedent for taking drastic actions like invading an soverieign nation to uphold one or a hundred UN resolutions is like sticking your head in that sand you are staring at with the imaginary line you drew in it.

I know the black and white business peeves you, but that is what our analysis of the data, strategy and plan consisted of - Saddam, bad. US, good and righteous. Good must overcome bad. Attack.

Unfortunately the first Bush and his administration had their wits about them, and the second one didn't. Jim

Last edited by JimSmith; 03-30-2007 at 03:24 PM.
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