Looks like we may invade Iran next..... - Page 24 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #231 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
As I have already stated and inferred repeatedly, the UN holds no particular relevance in regard to this issue. In fact, I would be strongly supportive of any action to distance and even remove ourselves from the UN altogether. This avenue of contention you have chosen is disingenuous and unimportant, as is demonstrated by your dismissal of the fate of the eighteenth resolution.
I don't understand why you repeatedly challenge my integrity as opposed to merely disagreeing with my conclusions or arguments. How am I being diningenuous?

I simply disagree with you. You have been arguing that the U.N.'s failure to sanction the invasion makes the invasion illegal (correct me if I'm wrong in understanding your argument). Now you are arguing that the U.N. is irrelevant.

I am arguing a point of law, not morality. If U.N. resolutions have the force of international law (which many argue that they do), then Resolution 1441 is sufficient to make war with Iraq legal. If you disagree, fine. But calling me disingenuous is niether accurate nor particularly helpful to advancing an understanding of where and how we disagree.
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post #232 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by dorfman24
Because the article you site was written nearly six months after the invasion. Your sentence makes no sense with that knowledge:

"If nothing was found [after the invasion of Iraq], tell us why we went to war [six months earlier]?
Re-read my question again.

And add the 18th Resolution to the answer before you respond.

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post #233 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith
The US was alone on this one in the UN, because we were blinded by the righteousness of our black and white filter - training we all have from watching old western movies where the good guys wear white hats and the bad guys wear black ones, and you learn what is good and bad by watching the movies and making the connections between what the white hats do and the black hats do. Makes for good cowboy movies but it is not really very good at dealing with real life situations involving things as complex as relations between religious factions in areas of the world that have existed for an order of magnitude longer than our form of government.

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I am amazed at your willingness to reduce the opinions of others to child-like simplicity while at the same time implying that you alone (or those who share your opinions) truly understand the delicate complexities of the world.
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post #234 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by elau
Re-read my question again.

And add the 18th Resolution to the answer before you respond.
France threatened to veto the 18th resolution after agreeing to support it in theory several months earlier. After that, political support for it diminished and it was withdrawn.

At the time of the invasion, no one was seriously arguing that Iraq was in compliance with U.N. Resolution 1441. Hans Blix in February said that Iraq was making efforts but conceded that these efforts were not satisfactory.

France's hesitation on resolution 18 was a policy dispute over the invasion, not an argument that Iraq was compliant.

Iraq was not compliant and resolution 18 was not necessary.
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post #235 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by dorfman24
I don't understand why you repeatedly challenge my integrity as opposed to merely disagreeing with my conclusions or arguments. How am I being diningenuous?

I simply disagree with you. You have been arguing that the U.N.'s failure to sanction the invasion makes the invasion illegal (correct me if I'm wrong in understanding your argument). Now you are arguing that the U.N. is irrelevant.

I am arguing a point of law, not morality. If U.N. resolutions have the force of international law (which many argue that they do), then Resolution 1441 is sufficient to make war with Iraq legal. If you disagree, fine. But calling me disingenuous is niether accurate nor particularly helpful to advancing an understanding of where and how we disagree.
You do not understand my argument at all. The same UN that has condemned this unilateral invasion as a point of fact if not "law" is irrelevant, that is my argument. How many times must I repeat it? And I am not interested in scoring points on a debate team tote board or in arguing points of law. This is about life and death in the real world, and all of the consequences that ensue as a result of the Bush administration's incredibly poor foreign policy. This is entirely about morality and politics, not some ethereal concepts of International law decreed by an ineffectual body utterly incapable of enforcing its will.

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post #236 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar
You do not understand my argument at all. The same UN that has condemned this unilateral invasion as a point of fact if not "law" is irrelevant, that is my argument. How many times must I repeat it? And I am not interested in scoring points on a debate team tote board or in arguing points of law. This is about life and death in the real world, and all of the consequences that ensue as a result of the Bush administration's incredibly poor foreign policy. This is entirely about morality and politics, not some ethereal concepts of International law decreed by an ineffectual body utterly incapable of enforcing its will.
GermanStar, I'm not interested in scoring points either. But many people on this board (including yourself) have argued that the UN's lack of sanction for the invasion renders it illegal and/or immoral. I am countering that argument.

If you want to argue the morality of the Iraq war, that's an entirely different argument.

And I kind of agree with your comments on the U.N. as an irrelevant body that cannot enforce its own will. Hence the Bush administration's decision to move forward without an explicit sanction using authority from Resolution 1441.

By the way, I'll note that this discussion thread began as a discussion about whether we would invade Iran. Amazing how we ended up back in 2002/2003.
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post #237 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by dorfman24
I don't think I'm being silly at all. If you believe that U.N. Security Countil resolutions have the force of law - which I am inferring that you do - then the U.N.'s determination that Iraq was in violation of the ceasefire puts Iraq in a state of war with the other signatories of that ceasefire. My question went to the point of whether there was any other resolution which contradicted the resolutions I have already cited.
No, what you are really saying is that the United States has some power over the UN, that we get to call the shots and tell the rest of the world what's law and what is not. They, on the other hand, refused to give us permission to invade Iraq and refused to form a coalition to aid our efforts. Yet you someone assert that we were carrying out their wishes, an idea as absurd as the rest of your drivel.
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post #238 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 11:31 AM
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Well, it's hard to discuss one and ignore the other. Had we not invaded Iraq, Iran would likely be no more or less a threat than they were before the invasion. It is obvious to me that the (at least temporary) empowerment of Iran was part of Cheney's plan all along. To what end I cannot say, though it is all too easy to envision the worst...

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post #239 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by dorfman24
I have to run out - we'll resume soon. But to be clear - I never said that U.N. resolution 1441 supported the invasion. What I said was the the U.N. resolution clearly stated that Iraq's failure to comply with the resolution - and the preceding resolutions - would constitute a violation of Iraq's obligations under the ceasefire agreement it signed in 1991. Vioalting a ceasefire agreement constitutes a casus belli.
Trumped up bullshit. You people were responsible for the military murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent people with your twisting, lying logic that no one believes but you.
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post #240 of 383 (permalink) Old 03-30-2007, 11:39 AM
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Do you know why the supporter of the Iraqi war hate the UN?
It's amazing how the US government sees and deals with the UN. We have so much power in that organization to a point where it's not even fair but when issues run contrary to our wishes we start bitching. It's like that child that all of the sudden started thinking despite our clear directives on how it should behave. It's kind of intense you know!
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