Climate change confirmation should end debate - Page 5 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #41 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-28-2007, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flyboyike
And we have another winner of the benzworld daily prize. A lifetime subscription to this.
LOL

I was joking.

Please send my prize to FTL for his heroic threat that he will punch me in the face if he can find a stool to stand on.

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post #42 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-28-2007, 10:57 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gregs300CD
It's remarkable that so many people who consider themselves "free-thinkers" allow themselves to internalize and regurgitate the interests of big money that doesn't care for you, your kids, your language, culture, ideas, ideals, anything.

Just give your money and don't rock the boat.
(Please master, give me the whip. It is much more efficient if I do it myself...)

And part of this ideology is to attack all others with differing opinions as "stoolies" who have been blinded by propoganda. Pretty ironic, don't you think?
Big money? Like GreenPeace? The UN?

I am trying to keep them out of my pockets.

The only big money i worry about is the government. Only they can tax me. Since only 20 percent of us pay more than we receive , it is a losing battle.
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post #43 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-28-2007, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveN007
Instead of the mental mastrubation, why not try answering a couple of questions and explain how you come to the conclusion that man is changing the "global climate". If you see a crow on a fence post in the morning do you believe that a relative has died? Does it rain because people open umbrellas?
Get calibrated. Man is not changing the global climate. The hypothesis being put forward is man is adding to the natural causes for climate change. So, the debate is whether or not a system that is already unstable can be pushed to become more unstable by man's influences.

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Originally Posted by DaveN007
How much does the Sun's activity affect our climate?
The Earth derives virtually all of its energy from the Sun, and the albedo, the ratio of reflected to incident electromagnetic radiation power is a method for accounting for changes in the Earth's response to the Sun. When the Albedo changes, the incident value is washed out of the equation. So, more incident radiation won't change the albedo in and of itself. More incident radiation is something we all can measure readily though. While you suggest this is the case, please cite the measurements and quantify the increase, then explain how this increase is causing the changes we are seeing, and the activities of man, which change the albedo without changing the incident radiation value, are not. Note that if the incident value increases from the sun's activities, and we change the albedo so more incident radiation is absorbed, we double the problem. Note that part is within our control and the other part is not. Also note the proposed response is to control the part we can.

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Originally Posted by DaveN007
Why is the number one greenhouse gas- water vapor- ignored?
How is that being ignored? The water cycle actually affects the albedo. More clouds, means more white surface area, means more light is reflected. If that light is from the Sun, it bounces off into space. If that light has made it to the surface and bounces up to the clouds, it bounces back down to the earth - and is trapped.

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Originally Posted by DaveN007
Why have CO2 increases come AFTER warming instead of BEFORE?
This has also been discussed. You should pay better attention. We are seeing an increase today, so are you postulating we missed the global warming event already? In fact once the natural CO2 storage faclities are disrupted there is a massive outpouring of CO2 to be expected. This comes with the loss of polar and other glacial ice fields, and the warming of the oceans. So, smaller changes in CO2 content may well be missed or ignored when looking at the aftermath of a very big warming cycle. If you are going throw stones, at least look where you are aiming the stones.

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Originally Posted by DaveN007
Why are we not seeing any warming in the part of the atmosphere associated with "the greenhouse effect" instead of just surface temperature increases if CO2 is the culprit.
Peculiar. I have yet to see a weather report or a track of the average temperature of the Earth over the last century that is a surface temperature. It is always an air temperature. And air is a heat transfer media for the climate system. It is routinely heated from the surface and as it rises drops adiabatically at approximately 3 degrees F per 1000 ft. Just like compressed air being released from a bottle makes the nozzle it escapes from cold, regardless of whether the bottle is 50 degress F or 150 degrees F (depending on the difference in pressure, of course, but it follows the same rules - 3 degrees F per pressure change equivalent to 1000 ft rise from sea level).


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Originally Posted by DaveN007
How, exactly does CO2 measureably affect climate compared to cloud cover...water vapor...which is 95% of the "greenhouse gas" in the atmosphere...when it is such a small percentage...and how does man's miniscule percentage of the total CO2 represent such a threat that it requires a change in how we live?
See above. Water vapor also increases the reflected light from the Sun. Changes the albedo. Greenhouse gasses only really effectively deal with long wavelength light reflecting from the surface of the Earth. It either absorbs the energy directly or it reflects it back towards the Earth, and eventually in that path back and forth it is absorbed. If it is reflected back into space before it gets into the thicker atmosphere, or before it hits the surface of the earth, that photon goes into the albedo equation as lost energy.

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Originally Posted by DaveN007
How about the magnetosphere? It determines the rate at which we are bombarded by particles in the solar wind...AND THOSE PARTICLES ARE THE BASIS FOR CLOUD COVER ON EARTH.
And all this time I thought they made the Aurora Borealis, and water vapor and dust from the surface of the Earth made clouds and rain and snow. And sleet.

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Originally Posted by DaveN007
The Earth's magnet field shifts. The sun varies in output. But the reason why the climate is changing is because I don't pay enough in taxes? Nice try.
Now we get to the meat of your argument. You are afraid that taking some steps now to ensure your great grandchildren won't need gills to survive is going to cost you, personally, some skin. Thanks for explaining your point of view and its basis so suscinctly. Why not just make that point to begin with and avoid all the other mumbling of scientific terms?

Jim

Last edited by JimSmith; 03-28-2007 at 11:58 AM.
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post #44 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-28-2007, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveN007
Big money? Like GreenPeace? The UN?
No, try Saudi Arabia and Iran and the petrochemical industry. That's big money. GreenPeace? Chickenfeed. UN, impotent and also chickenfeed.

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Originally Posted by DaveN007
I am trying to keep them out of my pockets.
We see that and how it is the fulcrum of your entire outlook and argument. We understand you now, so no need to suggest scientific rationale to support your position.

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Originally Posted by DaveN007
The only big money i worry about is the government. Only they can tax me. Since only 20 percent of us pay more than we receive , it is a losing battle.
You owe all you have to the government, don't you? Without them, where would you be?

Jim
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post #45 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-28-2007, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveN007
The Earth's magnet field shifts. The sun varies in output. But the reason why the climate is changing is because I don't pay enough in taxes? Nice try.
Use your search feature [either on OT or Google] as this stuff has been posted about 20 times before here and is on the net just about everywhere. Just because you don’t like the answers you see posted does not mean they are wrong and a vast Cabal of Conspiracy is chasing your money.

You are not going to change your mind and apparently going to ask the same questions until you get an answer that fits your conclusions. Sorry, not going to continue to play that game. It is not about taxes, it is not about inconveniencing you or anyone else. If you don’t understand the science, or trust someone who does, that is your misfortune. Find a credible source that you trust and go with it.

EDIT: Oh and by the way Damn, Jim now my head hurts. I thought I didn't have to study today. Excellent post.

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Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.

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post #46 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-28-2007, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith
You owe all you have to the government, don't you? Without them, where would you be?

Jim
Puhleeze . . .

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post #47 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-28-2007, 07:03 PM
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Puhleeze . . .
Isn't it our government that makes it possible for us to be capitalists and have a universal set of rules for trade across the country, and with other countries? Seems the rich are the benefactors of the conditions created by the government more than anyone else.

Besides, all you guys are so behind the President, the figurehead of the government, you are willing to send Americans overseas to die or be maimed in deserts among people who have no use for them, other than to practice their techniques for carrying out their terror campaign. So, is what you are saying is the lives of America's children are of less value to you than your money the government might tax? Geez. Jim
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post #48 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-29-2007, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith
Isn't it our government that makes it possible for us to be capitalists and have a universal set of rules for trade across the country, and with other countries? Seems the rich are the benefactors of the conditions created by the government more than anyone else.

Besides, all you guys are so behind the President, the figurehead of the government, you are willing to send Americans overseas to die or be maimed in deserts among people who have no use for them, other than to practice their techniques for carrying out their terror campaign. So, is what you are saying is the lives of America's children are of less value to you than your money the government might tax? Geez. Jim
Good heavens. If you actually believe that crap then you'd have made a fine loyalist during the American Revolution.
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post #49 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-29-2007, 07:30 AM
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^^^^^^

Didn't they out-number the revolutionaries, certainly when combined with the dontgiveafuckniks?
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post #50 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-29-2007, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst
Good heavens. If you actually believe that crap then you'd have made a fine loyalist during the American Revolution.
The government has few functions in the Constitution beyond setting conditions and enforcing them to allow pursuit of individual happiness. In our present culture that is confused completely with accumulating wealth.

At the present moment the government is deeply engaged in sacrificing America's next generation to a fabricated story of WMD and terror connections with Saddam apparently in order to gain some control of oil supplies from the region, while lowering taxes for the wealthier Americans and running up a deficit that future middle and lower class Americans will pay, presumably. Sure seems to be a lot of gift giving and support for the wealthy in that plan.

It also seems like the status of their presently untaxed, but potentially taxable income is worth more to the wealthy than their children. Or maybe it is their neighbor's children or the poor people's children. In any case, our government is doing much more for those with wealth than those without it, but the gift giving is not so obvious. The visible handouts to the poor through social programs are an easy target.

It is consistent with the past elections - people will vote for a tax cut regardless of the effect it may have on any other aspect of their lives. Jim
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