Democrats introduce legislation demanded by the people: US OUT OF IRAQ IN ONE YEAR - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-08-2007, 11:27 AM Thread Starter
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Democrats introduce legislation demanded by the people: US OUT OF IRAQ IN ONE YEAR

Is this still a democracy? In today's NBC/Wall Street Journal Poll, support for the war is now under 20% of those surveyed. The voters spoke loud and clear on Nov 6. Will the rule of law, representative democracy and our own freedom as voters in this country win, or will we be forced by scumbag Neo-Con Fascists to be like Soviet state-slaves, or to be like Saudi Arabian "royal subjects" or like Nazi undarmenschen, to eat the shit of our dictators ? The test of whether we are still a free people begins:

Democratic bill would have troops out of Iraq by fall 2008 - CNN.com

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-08-2007, 12:32 PM
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The Democrats control congress. I guess you should ask them.

Thankfully even the most rabid partisan in government is more rational than you are about these adult matters.

I trust the democrats to do the right thing. Maybe you should tone down your Nazi comment a bit and let them do the job they were elected to do. Change the direction of our strategy in Iraq.

Only FTL and a handful of other crazies think the election was a suicide pact.
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-10-2007, 06:48 AM
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Failed.
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-10-2007, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
Is this still a democracy? In today's NBC/Wall Street Journal Poll, support for the war is now under 20% of those surveyed. The voters spoke loud and clear on Nov 6. Will the rule of law, representative democracy and our own freedom as voters in this country win, or will we be forced by scumbag Neo-Con Fascists to be like Soviet state-slaves, or to be like Saudi Arabian "royal subjects" or like Nazi undarmenschen, to eat the shit of our dictators ? The test of whether we are still a free people begins:

Democratic bill would have troops out of Iraq by fall 2008 - CNN.com
The United States is not a democracy, but a representative republic. As you must know (when not in a frothy anti-Bush screech) the founders purposely constructed a government where the will of the people is tempered by institutions meant to act in the interest of the nation, not merely in direct response to the latest whim of the people.

I think the founders' wisdom is on dramatic display right now as Nancy Pelosi struggles to lose this war.
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-10-2007, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dorfman24
The United States is not a democracy, but a representative republic. As you must know (when not in a frothy anti-Bush screech) the founders purposely constructed a government where the will of the people is tempered by institutions meant to act in the interest of the nation, not merely in direct response to the latest whim of the people.

I think the founders' wisdom is on dramatic display right now as Nancy Pelosi struggles to lose this war.
I once had the same conversation with Michael Dukakis via e-mail. I'll tell you what he told me - "The nation and the issues aren't served by petty squabbles over whether we're a republic or a democracy."

This was following a low-temperature rant on which he embarked, and based in no small part on the "we're a democracy" argument. I guess when you're a Democrat, we all live in a democracy, and when you're a Republican, we all live in a republic.
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-10-2007, 08:40 AM
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A democracy is a 'Mob-ocracy'.

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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-10-2007, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR
I once had the same conversation with Michael Dukakis via e-mail. I'll tell you what he told me - "The nation and the issues aren't served by petty squabbles over whether we're a republic or a democracy."

This was following a low-temperature rant on which he embarked, and based in no small part on the "we're a democracy" argument. I guess when you're a Democrat, we all live in a democracy, and when you're a Republican, we all live in a republic.
I would disagree with Dukakis that the squabble is petty - I think it's pretty fundamental to any discussion of government in this country whether the elected representatives should vote purely in line with the desires of the people or based upon their own understanding of what is best for the nation.

I personally believe that the answer is somewhere in the middle. Representatives, in order to be re-elected, must vote somewhat in line with the wishes of their constituents, to be sure. But they also have access to a greater understanding of the issues (if for no other reason than they have the time professionally to devote to it) than the average man on the street so they must at times vote in an unpopular way that may be a better policy decision.

That, I believe, is exactly why the founders structured our government the way they did: the House to react to the people and the Senate to take a more tempered approach, all balanced out with the division of authority in the executive and judicial branches.
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-10-2007, 09:42 AM Thread Starter
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Our government is officially a republic. The US Constitution explicitly says so.
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-10-2007, 12:05 PM
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You'll get no argument from me....I am confused, though, by some of your words:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove
Is this still a democracy? In today's NBC/Wall Street Journal Poll, support for the war is now under 20% of those surveyed. The voters spoke loud and clear on Nov 6. Will the rule of law, representative democracy...
I hope this whole "mob rule" version of our republic that Democrats so often refer to as "Democracy" isn't terribly important to your view of justice, especially as it applies to the ability of our congress to carry out the will of the people. I certainly don't fit into your "majority", and I'm still the people...who's to say which of us is right or wrong on an important issue? We're going to boil them all down to simple majority kinds of decisions, even if the majority aren't privy to enough information to make an informed decision?

Mob rule is a very, very bad thing. Worse than the mentality you so routinely deplore, of our President, who declared world leaders to be either "with us, [or] against us".

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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-10-2007, 12:11 PM
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But what about the shiny new Democrazy, just minted in Iraq. Do they have a say?

Thursday, May 10, 2007
Associated Press

BAGHDAD — A majority of Iraqi lawmakers have endorsed a bill calling for a timetable for the withdrawal of foreign troops and demanding a freeze on the number of foreign troops already in the country, lawmakers said Thursday.

The legislation was being debated even as U.S. lawmakers were locked in a dispute with the White House over their call to start reducing the size of the U.S. force here in the coming months.

The Iraqi bill, drafted by a parliamentary bloc loyal to anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, was signed by 144 members of the 275-member house, according to Nassar al-Rubaie, the leader of the Sadrist bloc.

The Sadrist bloc, which sees the U.S.-led forces as an occupying army, has pushed similar bills before, but this was the first time it had garnered the support of a majority of lawmakers.

The bill would require the Iraqi government to seek approval from parliament before it requests an extension of the U.N. mandate for foreign forces to be in Iraq, al-Rubaie said. It also calls for a timetable for the troop withdrawal and a freeze on the size of the foreign forces.

The U.N. Security Council voted unanimously in November to extend the U.S.-led forces' mandate until the end of 2007. The resolution, however, said the council "will terminate this mandate earlier if requested by the government of Iraq."

Al-Rubaie said he personally handed the Iraqi bill to speaker Mahmoud al-Mashhadani on Wednesday.

Deputy Speaker Khaled al-Attiyah told The Associated Press the draft legislation had not been officially submitted to the speaker, but was currently being reviewed by the house's legal department, apparently the final step before it can be submitted.

Al-Rubaie said al-Mashhadani had a week to schedule a debate on the bill before he would use the majority that backs it to force a debate.

Al-Sadr's Mahdi Army militia, which launched two uprisings against U.S. troops in 2004, has been blamed in much of the recent sectarian violence against Sunnis and has been one of the main targets of a U.S.-Iraqi security crackdown.

Last month, the cleric ordered his six Cabinet ministers to leave the government after Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki refused to put a timetable for foreign troops withdrawal.

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